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Author Topic: A Forum for the Follis  (Read 29612 times)

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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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A Forum for the Follis
« on: March 23, 2005, 08:17:52 pm »
I collect follises [English], sometimes written folles [Latin], by emperor by mint from c. 294 to 313.  The period embraces the first appearance of the follis to the closing of the Ostia mint, as covered by "The Roman Imperial Coinage" [RIC], Volume 6.  The first follises are roughly the size of a U.S. large cent.  By 313, the Ostia follises are about the size of a nickel, or U.S. five cent piece, and they get even smaller after that.

I mostly ignore follises after 313, those covered by RIC, Volume 7.

Diocletian follises appear from 15 mints.  The other three members of the First Tetrarchy appear from the same 15 plus Ostia, from which they only are issued as deified emperors.  For the Second Tetrarchy (305-306), 15 mints issue for Severus II, 16 for the other three.  For the Third Tetrarchy (306-307) Severus II has no Ostia issues, the other three do.  And so on, through various usurpers to the Second Revised Tetrarchy (310-313).

As my collection grew, it branched.  It now includes:

1. One follis from each mint for each emperor or usurper from 294 to 313.

2. All reverses that interest me.

3. All fractions of the follis, including the ones in RIC, Volume Seven.

I propose a dialogue that would include:

1. All things Roman Imperial follis, as covered in RIC, Volumes 6 & 7.  I know some authors call the coin a nummis, but let’s keep to the word follis, because most books use the word.  

2. Sources of numismatic knowledge in scholarly periodicals and journals, such as "The Mystery of the Missing Mint Mark," in the March 2005 "Celator."

3. Where and how to put hands on translations of primary historical sources of the period.  I still have not secured a copy of  "De mortibus persecutorum" by Lactantius, the primary work on the period by someone who lived through it.  Incidentally, anyone looking for a translation of Diocletians’ Edict of Maximum Prices can find it on pp. 224-227 of Stephen William’s "Diocletian and the Roman Recovery," Methuen, New York, 1985, 257 pages.  Some coin collectors believe that the Moneta reverses of follises of the period commemorate this edict.

My web name is FOLLIBUS FANATICUS, Ciceronian Latin for enthusiastic for follises.  Now let’s hear about follises, questions, observations, opinions and coin war stories.
Follibus Fanaticus

Offline Pep

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2005, 12:42:06 am »
Here is the text of Lactantius's "Of the Manner in which the Persecutors Died" (Addressed to Donatus):

http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/lactant/lactperf.html

I found it through the great resource (and a winner of our Forvm Classical Studies Award *shameless plug :P*):

Internet Ancient History Sourcebook
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook.html

It has alot of great primary texts onsite and links to other sites with such texts.

However, I couldn't find an English translation of the "Diocletian Edict on Prices' target='_blank'>Edict on Prices" there or anywhere else on the Internet.  Strange, one would think such an important document would be posted somewhere.

You have proposed an interesting dialogue Follibus, I look forward to seeing its evolution.

Kevin  :)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2005, 01:48:38 am »
Is there a meaningful definition of the term? I think it's pretty clear when the follis first appeared, in Diocletian's reform, but then it shrinks and fades away in a rather vague manner. How far can we actually determine the moment of it's disappearance?
Robert Brenchley

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Offline PeterD

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2005, 05:52:44 am »
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline mauseus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2005, 07:12:33 am »
Hi,

The text "preamble" to the prices is on the above link but not the prices themselves.

Tables of the actual prices for goods and services (or at least a partial list) can be found in a book, the title of which is something like Roman History: A sourcebook (1967, if my memory serves me right).

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline PeterD

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2005, 07:47:40 am »
Actually the prices are listed in a book I have, called "Roman Civilization, Vol II, Selected Readings, The Empire" edited by Naphali Lewis and Meyer Reinhold.

I will try to scan the appropriate part later in the day and put it on my web-site.
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline mauseus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2005, 07:54:53 am »
Hi Peter,

That's the book I was thinking of! [I was nearly right with the title]. It gives a good selection of the 1000 or so prices "controlled" by Diocletian.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2005, 08:27:22 am »
Response to Replies 4 & 6, Mauseus and 5, Peter.

The total text for Diocletian Edict on Prices' target='_blank'>Diocletian's Edict on Prices.

I found the book Peter and Mauseus refer to in my library.  It is:

"Roman Civilization: Sourcebook II:The Empire," Naphtali Lewis & Meyer Reinhold, editors.  Harper Tourchbooks, 1966,Harper & Roe, New York, paperback, 652 pp.

From pp. 464 to 472 is the Edict on Maximum Prices and the list of prices, which starts with 100 denarii for "an army modius of wheat."

This and Sourcebook I:  The Republic, contain many interesting things for coin collectors.  I got my 2 volume set in a used book store.

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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 10:26:39 am »
A response to Reply No 2 from Robert Brenchley

Let’s try a working definition for this discussion.  I am aware that there is a Byzantine follis, but that coin is not included in the discussion.

Follis:  A mostly bronze coin with a small amount of silver first issued by the Roman Emperor Diocletian (284-305) in about 294 at between 9 and 11 gm and probably continued to 346, when it had shrunk to about 1 1/2 gm.

I’m sure that I will have help in qualifying that definition.  I took several factors into consideration in an attempt to keep it simple.

RIC 7 calls everything till 337 "folles."  It hedges a bit, because it heads every listing of bronze "AES, FOLLES."  Since Sutherland, Carson and Bruun give me a choice, I’ll use the term follises.

RIC 8 calls the lesser-valued coins "Base Billon and Bronze."  I see no reason to change names till the reform; however, if someone gives me a good objection, I would be delighted to exclude aes coins from 337 to 346 from this discussion.  One needs a PhD in cryptic abbreviation to use RIC 8, even if all features of a coin are visible.

Next, let’s look at "The Classic Latin Dictionary," published by Follett, Chicago, 1946.  I use this one because I can lift it.  I’ve edited the citings to fit this discussion.

follis  -- is, masculine.  a leather bag. 1.  Word used by Plautus.  2.  Esp.  folles spirant maedacia;  in Juvenal, human lungs; follis fabrilis in Livy, a pair of bellows.  2.  A leather purse, Juvenal.

nummus  (numus) –i, masculine.  1.  money, coin.  Cicero, habere in nummis, to have in cash.  2.  a  sestertius, Cicero.  a farthing, Cicero: ad numum convenit, "it comes right to a farthing."

One reason to continue using the term follis for our coin:  It is an idiom for sestertius in Ciceronian Latin.

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Offline Severus_Alexander

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 11:35:57 am »
Sounds like a great collection.  Have you thought about creating a web site about the coins?   Forvm hosts such sites.

Thank you.

Offline PeterD

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2005, 12:16:28 pm »
In case anyone's still interested, I have posted Diocletian's Edict with prices, in Word Doc format, here.

http://www.aoti76.dsl.pipex.com/Dio_edict.doc

BTW I think English speakers nearly always use "Folles" as the plural of "Follis". "Follises" would be a bit hard to say!
Peter, London

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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2005, 05:11:13 pm »
Response to Reply 10 from Peter

Folles or follises, how to say it?

I do like folles better because it's shorter.

If at my local coin show I ask, "Do you have any folles?", the response will be: "I don't sell recordings, but Gotkin does.  Perhaps he has a recording of that show."

Go to Gotkin, who sells a bit of everything, ask the same question, and he will reply: "I don't have Follies, but I have a great recording of Oklahoma."

So, I have learned to say the word with an extra syllable.  I am well aware that RIC, Sear and others use folles.

Does anyone else have a thought?  I am inclined to change to folles, because it will save space and keystrokes.

Follibus Fanaticus

P.S.  Now you know why I used fanaticus.  It attracts the coin's name into the dative,
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Offline Windchild

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2005, 07:00:49 pm »
I think the word "folles" is now desut, the better word would be "nummus" "nummi" simply meaning "coin" because we have no idea how the roman called those coins. Folles were probaly a pouch of coin and probaly a distinct amount, but not the coin itself.

Follibus, do you really own a coin of each usurper? Do you own coin from "Domitius Alexander"? (a carthaginian usurper between 308 and 310 ad)
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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2005, 09:10:02 pm »
Reply to Response 12

I, alas, own neither a Domitius Domitianus nor an Alexander of Carthage.  I do own a Romulus.  I got it from a man who specializes in U.S. paper money.  See my recent post, Response No. 13 under Ancient Clubs & Shows, Etiquette.
This dealer sold me an EF Ostia Romulus for way under market.  Did I tell any of my coin friends my source?  No.

I do like junk boxes.  I did pull a Theodora out of one some time ago.  Also, dealers do not take folles seriously.  I recently bought three folles for $100.  The worst looking of the three was a Maxentius from Aquleia with a CONSERV VRB SVAE reverse, nice enough, but the obverse inscription reads:  IMP MAXENTIVS P F AVG CONS II [RIC 125].  CONS II (309) seems rather late for a dating as consul on bronze.

Dealers often do not attribute coins correctly.  I bought a packaged follis attributed to Constantius I from Carthage.  It had a genius reverse and a K+Gamma mintmark. At 30 mm. it weighs 10.26 gm.  I had the devil of a time identifying it, but the legend reads: FL VAL CONSTANTINVS NOB CAES, a huge flan Constantine from c. 306 [RIC 24b].  If the name read CONSTANTIVS, it would be a Constantius I c. 295-96 [RIC 11a].

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Offline PeterD

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2005, 12:24:34 pm »
Although "Follis" was not the name of the the coin, nor was "Nummus".  "Follis" pretty well identifies the exact issue, whereas "Nummis" could be any nameless coin. RIC and Sear both use "Follis" and while that doesn't make them correct, they are the sources that most collectors use, so that is the term that I would use.

The original full weight Folles when completely silvered must have looked splendid. Although I only have a few Folles, I have several that are quite nice. My best ones were collected before the internet revolution. If anyone's interested, check out my web-site below. On the menu bar select "Rome/from Diocletian".
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2005, 01:12:43 pm »
AMMIANUS WHO?

When I meet a fellow collector who likes Roman coins from the 300’s, I usually get around to asking, "Have you read Ammianus Marcellinus?"  Nine times out of ten I get a blank stare of utter incomprehension.

Since most of the surviving work of Ammianus is easily available in a Penguin Classics paperback, available in most large bookstores and certainly on line, I thought I would give him a post on this site.

Teaser:  Did you know that Gratian was married to a lady that the Penguin book’s introduction terms Constantia 2.  She was a daughter of Constantius II and his third wife, Faustina.  Constantius II was the son of Constantine I and Fausta.  Constantine I was the son of Constantius I and Helena, and Fausta was a daughter of Maximianus Herculius,

Gratian certainly nailed down his claim to the throne by his marriage.  This was one well-connected lady.  I have never seen her mentioned in any coin book.

So, for this and other good reasons, the Penguin paperback is certainly worth a look.

Who:  Ammianus Marcellinus (c. 330 - c. 390/395 ?) was an army officer who served under Constantius II and Julian.  He retired to Rome after discharge (c. 371?), where he lived till his death.  He wrote a history that presents the late Roman world vividly.  He is considered "Rome’s last great historian."

What:  His history covered from Nerva till Gratian’s defeat at the battle of Adrianople in 31 books.  Books 1 through 13 are lost.  The surviving books, 14 through 31 cover the years 354 – 378.  Ammianus witnessed many of the events and knew most of the people he writes about.

Where:  Ammianus wrote at Rome in Latin.  

Ronald Syme often infers that the author of the "Historia Augusta" knew Ammianus’ book.  The author of "Historia Augusta" claims that book written during the reign of Diocletian as Augustus, which ended in 305; however, he writes that Constantius I, and thus Constantine I, are descendants of Claudius II Gothicus.  This false claim was first made in 311, and Constantine I even issued coins to promulgate the myth.  Syme thinks the author of "Historia Augusta" lifted this detail out of the lost part of Ammianus, then misdated it.

Why:  If you like Roman history, don’t miss this book.   A few details may whet your appetite.

On  Constantius II’s entrance into Rome in 357:  "Though he was very short, he stooped when he passed under a high gate; otherwise, he was like a dummy, gazing straight before him as if his head were in a vice and turning neither to right nor left."  (Penguin translation; p. 101)

On the papal election of 366.  The election of Damasus (305-384) as the 37th pope provided Ammianus, a pagan, a chance to prove that he was not shy about commenting on Christianity.  Because John Paul II, the 263d pope, looks ill, and a papal election looks likely, the following quote has a timely interest:

"Damasus and Ursinus, whose passionate ambition to seize the Episcopal throne passed all bounds, were involved in the most bitter conflict of interest, and adherents of both did not stop short of wounds and death…The efforts of his partisans secured victory for Damasus.  It is certain that in the basilica of Sicininus, where the Christians assemble for worship, 137 corpses were found in a single day, and it was with difficulty that the long-continued fury of the people was brought under control."

Ammianus Maximus.  "The Later Roman Empire (A.D. 354 - 378).  trans. Walter Hamilton.  Penguin Books, 1986, New York, 1986 (many printings), paperback, 506 pages.
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Offline Windchild

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2005, 03:16:51 pm »
Hi Follibus.


It is a frquent misatribution to give those coin to Carthage because of the K. Carthage coint were labeled "PK" or were without mintmark.
Your coin seems to be a  RIC 9a or 11a from Cyzicus
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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2005, 03:59:00 pm »
The coin is 11a from Cyzicus.  I left out the mint in my posting, but the coin doies illustrate frequent dealer error.  This is the largest and heaviest Constantine I that I own.

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Offline curtislclay

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2005, 05:00:40 pm »
Gratian's Constantia is not well known to numismatists, because no coins were issued for her.  She does enter numismatic discussions however, because of the title AVGG AVG on some of Gratian's coins, AVGG being interpreted as Augusti gener, Son-in-law of the Augustus, i.e. married to Constantius II's daughter Constantia.  I summarized Eckhel's commentary on this matter for Forum a week or two ago, topic Gratian GLORIA NOVI SAECVLI, under Roman Coins.
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Offline dougsmit

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2005, 05:06:34 pm »
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ammianus.html
or if you want a translation:
http://www.ammianus.info/historien.htm

Anyone have another link for a translation (English, maybe)?

Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2005, 11:33:35 pm »
FOLLES WITH XXI ON THEM

Dear Private Writer with an interest in XXI folles:

I can so far only find one of the XXI folles in my collection.  It's a Maximianus  H of Alexandria;  Rx. GENIO POPV [] LI ROMANI, [ALE in ex.], with an XXI in field left and a delta in field right.  In other words, RIC 30b, a
C2 of c. 300.  It weighs [A scale is my latest toy.] 9.19 gm, a bit off the lower end of RIC's range of 9.25 gm to 11.0 gm.

I am not looking for XXI folles, but I find that collection by emperor by mint will dredge up a bit of everything.

My example is almost fully silvered, with silver worn off the highest spots on the coin.  I am finding quite a few folles off the low end of RIC weights.  

Conclusion:  Major collections tend to own heavy examples.

FOLLIBUS FANATICUS


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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2005, 01:09:38 am »
FOLLIS COLLECTING: 1

STORAGE

I store my folles in an album designed for U.S. Large cents, 1793 – 1857.  The specific album I use is World Coin Library, No. 7099 Large Cents from the Dansco Corporation, 4313 West Jefferson Blvd., Los Angeles, CA, 90016. Each album contains seven 16-hole pages.  The holes are c. 29 – 30 mm.

1.  Unscrew the two screws at the page margins.  Remove the 7 pages, and flip them over.  Reinsert the pages and replace screws.  You now have blank facing pages that you can write on.  So far, I have found only one large follis that will not fit into the album.

2. I devote page 1 to Diocletian’s 15 mints.  I left the hole between Rome and Carthage blank.  I wrote the names of the Mints in RIC order, London to Alexandria, below each window.  Maxentius H, Constantius I, and Galerius. appear from 16 mints, so the hole between Rome and Carthage is labeled Ostia on their pages.  On some pages, I vary format.  Maxentius appears from six mints, so there’s room for Romulus [2 mints] on the Maxentius page.

3. I write data in pen below each window that contains a coin.  For example, the space under the top left hole on page 1, Diocletian, reads:  London/ no mint or officina marks/ RIC 6a [C2]/ c. 300, 8.69 gm.  I weighed the coin myself.

4. I do write in ink.  When I upgrade or replace a coin, I replace the data thusly.  I take a cloth, wet it with "Windex," a popular U.S. window cleaning fluid, and rub it on the writing.  This erases the ink nicely.  LET THE SPACE DRY.  Write in new data.

Now, I can compare my folles with each other just by flipping pages.  I can get a stylistic overview at a glance.

For smaller folles made between 307/309 and 313.  I use a U.S. quarter, 25-cent piece, album from the same company.  This album has 20 holes per page.

Folibus Fanaticus.
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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2005, 06:03:24 pm »
Hey Follibus!

As I may told you in a previous post I'mworking on the mint of Carthage. My aim is to build a good die link study of carthage coins (297AD -310 AD).
In order to do that I have aleardy assembled a collection of more than 1000 pictures from than mint; and I'm greadyly looking to enlarge it....  ;D
I now illustrate all of the RIC number and legend breaks + a dozen of unlisted coin (without counting unlisted legend break).

As you seem to own a grat collection, I would love to have good quality pictures of yours follis from carthage...  :) ;)


Guillaume (gmalingue@yahoo.fr)
Paris - France
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Offline Windchild

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2005, 06:06:47 pm »
.. and of course, if one of you folks need a pictures of some of those coin I would be delighted to share them!!
Once my studies over I will build an online picture databank. But that would require quite a lot of space... (I guess 500 meg. at least..) 8)
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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re:A Forum for the Follis
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2005, 04:54:12 pm »
If anyone wants to read about a new book, "Roman Bronze Coins...294 - 364 AD," look under: Coin of the Day, Constantine I,  CONSERV VRB SVAE, Reply 10.  This whole subject concerns a follis.

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