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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Books and References (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Which Pozzi Collection reference is the best? Differences? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Which Pozzi Collection reference is the best? Differences?  (Read 5400 times)
cogito
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« on: March 21, 2005, 05:40:55 pm »

I'm looking to add a Pozzi Collection reference book to my collection, but I've noticed that there are a few different sources.

There's the original Naville catalog, which is prohibitively expensive.  Then, there's the Serge Boutin two volume version.  And, now I've found a Hirsh hardcover reprint of the original Naville catalog.

What's the difference between the Boutin Pozzi Collection catalog and the Naville Pozzi Collection catalog...aside from price?

Thanks in advance for any aid in this puzzle.

Sincerely,
Jeff
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2005, 05:42:10 am »

I have the Boutin Pozzi.  It is easy to find purchase for about $60 (less sometimes).  The plates aren't the best, but it is a worthwhile purchase as 4630 coins are photographed.

In Ancient Coins Reference Reviews, Kroh discusses four editions of Pozzi.  There is the original auction catalog.  There is the 1966 reprint of that catalog (Kroh says "decent plates").  He gives this four stars.

Boutin's version gets two stars.  It doesn't include Pozzi's Asia Minor coins (Europe only).  It includes many coins NOT in the auction, especially bronze.  (For this reason I had to have it.)  Kroh calls the plates "dark and muddy".  The #s are of course completely different from the auction catalog.

Then there is the 1991 two volume reprint.  It is supposed to have plates as good as the 1921 catalog, and have all the coins in the auction and in Boutin, plus "valuation estimates" (in 1991 French Francs I believe).  I have seen this for sale online but not in person.  Expensive.  Four Kroh stars.
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cogito
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2005, 08:34:36 am »

Thanks.  Now, I'm stuck between getting the 1966 Pozzi Catalog reprint or the 1991 two volume reprint.  It sounds like the 1991 version would be preferable, but I haven't seen this online or on sale anywhere.  There are quite a few copies of the 1966 version, though.

Once again, thanks for the guidance.

Regards,
Jeff
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2005, 08:40:05 am »

Correction, the 1991 reprint is *3-volume*.  It is available from Van Der Dussen, whom is I believe the publisher.

The 1991 reprint is selling for 310 euro and listed on this page: http://www.vanderdussen.com/greek.html

I've never purchased from them, but their selection is impressive.  They have many titles unavailable elsewhere.  See http://www.vanderdussen.com/ for the main lists.
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2005, 05:18:19 pm »

Ed: Before I saw this separate posting, I partly answered your question in the thread following Cogito's coin.  I have both 1966 and Boutin, had to have Boutin for same reason as you, got the pair for not an awful lot.  That means, of course, that I don't have the Asia Minor Imperials and Civic bronzes, which I've never seen.
I find the reproduction of the Demeter coins (the die-pair of Cogito's and another) not very different in quality in the Leu reprint and the Boutin.
I've never seen the original 1921 sale catalogue.
Many of the hard-to-find coins are in Boutin; that is why he did the job.
Pat Lawrence
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cogito
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2005, 06:23:08 pm »

OK, now I'm totally confused.

What books will I need to have the complete listing of coinage in the collection...aside from the 1921 super expensive catalog (online listing at $750.00).

My plan was to get the 1966 hardback Hirsh and the Boutin books.  Buying these separately is still cheaper than the VanDessen 3 volume 1992 reprint.  Wouldn't Hirsh and Boutin cover everything?

Thanks,
Jeff
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2005, 06:26:18 pm »

     To be clear, there are two and only two original publications of the Pozzi collection.
     First the Naville auction catalogue of 1921, reprinted by J. Schulman in 1966, reprinted again as part of the 1991 set:  3334 coins, all illustrated on 101 plates.
     Second, Boutin's publication of the European half of the collection of 1979, which was reprinted to form the second half of the 1991 set.  This publication includes the 2085 European coins in the collection that were offered in the sale catalogue, plus over 2500 more that were omitted from the sale.  Total 4630 pieces, all illustrated on 202 plates.
      How was Boutin able to publish these extra coins sixty years after the collection had been dispersed?  Well, at the time he was murdered in 1918, Pozzi was planning to publish his collection, and had entrusted the job to A. Dieudonné of the Paris coin cabinet.  Dieudonné had composed all of the plates and most of the descriptions of the European part of the collection, when Pozzi's death ended the project.  A copy of these original plates and the descriptions fell into Boutin's hands, and he decided to publish them, updating the descriptions with modern references and, based on the images, adding the descriptions that were lacking.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2005, 06:36:27 pm »

Pat: I didn't figure out the answer myself until I looked up Pozzi in Kroh this morning to answer this question.

Although Kroh describe's Boutin's plates as "muddy" I find them easy to use, perhaps because Pozzi's coins themselves had good detail.  When flipping through Pozzi the coins 'leap' out at you.  This is unlike, say, Lindgren&Kovacs where even knowing what a coin depicts you find yourself scratching your head.

This catalog can often be had for $46, which works out to less than a penny a picture!

Recently I was able to identify this tiny (AE11) coin using Boutin: http://www.snible.org/coins/unknown_lady_shield.jpg

I had posted that coin here, on Moneta-L, spent hours at the ANS library looking for it, nothing.  It turns out to be of Chalcis in Euboea.  I got it as part of a CNG group lot of bronzes from Asia minor, supposedly Selge!

I assume Boutin's attribution to Chalcis is correct.  The symbol I thought was merely a cross is apparently the letter X (= Ch).  The bust, which Boutin calls "nymph", resembles the bust on some Chalcis fractions.  My coin is apparently quite rare, lacking in the other catalogs I've look at, including the recent BCD auction.  (Boutin couldn't find any other specimens either.)
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cogito
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2005, 06:45:03 pm »

Thanks for the clarification, Curtis.  That cinches it.  I'm going for the 1966 catalog reprint and a copy of Boutin.  

And, thanks to everyone else for their assistance in this matter.  Slowly but surely I'm learning, please bear with me...

Warm regards,
Jeff

BTW - Curtis, I'm still wowed by the Pamphylia, Aspendos stater w/ standing Eros that I got from you guys a week or so ago.  How rare are these issues?
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2005, 06:55:05 pm »

Curtis: Pozzi was murdered?!?

My Clain-Stefanelli Numismatic Bibliography says the Schulman reprint was in 1974, and the 1966 is a Bank Leu reprint.  I don't know if it makes a difference, quality-wise.

Although Kroh quotes 4630 coins there are a few more.  For example, there is a 3359, 3359bis, and 3359ter.  What do those suffixes mean?  I am used to extra coins getting an "a" or "b".

I became very concerned about the quality of the plates of books I buy unseen after spending $14 for a reprint of Percy Gardner's Coins of the Greek and Scythic Kings of Bactria and India.  Turns out I got an edition printed on newspaper from India.  The plates look like someone finger-painted over xeroxes of old crime-scene photos!
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2005, 08:00:22 pm »

Ed,
      Pozzi was a world-famous surgeon, born in 1846.  "On 12 June 1918, one of his patients, furious that the professor had declined to operate on him, on the grounds that the requested operation could by no means save the patient or prolong his life, assassinated him."
    "bis" and "ter" are Latin for "a second time" and "a third time".  They are often used to add numbers to an already completed list.
     I'm sure both the Leu and the Schulman reprints are acceptable, Europe ain't India!
Yours,
Curtis
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2019, 11:28:46 am »

I happened to be reading about Dr Samuel-Jean Pozzi today. He had an amazing life and was quite a pioneering surgeon. His wikipedia page hardly mentions his numismatic pursuits, which shows how many interests he had, mainly beautiful women of the day!

In 1918, Pozzi was shot four times by a former-patient and died soon afterwards.
 
Here he is painted at home by John Singer Sargent in 1881.
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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2019, 06:18:14 pm »

You can download the Naville Pozzi auction from Uni Heidelberg:
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/kundig_naville1921_04_04/0003

At centre left of the screen, click on the download icon and select the smaller high resolution version or the very high resolution version. Then save it to your pc.
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2019, 06:30:00 pm »

I have a hard copy of the Naville sale. I think I will sell it. Online works for me.
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2019, 06:54:59 am »

"Le Louis d'Or" in Monaco have edited the sale catalogue + the Serge Boutin catalogue with the plates in Deluxe edition (3 volumes).
Especially the Boutin plates have been enhanced so it's the best edition for the entire collection.
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