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Author Topic: Date of Vespasian's consecration  (Read 9728 times)

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Offline curtislclay

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Date of Vespasian's consecration
« on: March 17, 2005, 04:53:53 pm »
      This is the coinarchives image of New York Sale III, 7 Dec. 2000, 661 (3.63g), which I bought for my own collection.  It had previously been offered in Spink's Circular, Nov. 1990, 6687.
      This denarius is without doubt a mint mule, combining an obverse of Titus as Augustus with a reverse meant for Divus Vespasian.  A normal denarius of Divus Vespasian with rev. STRUCK FROM THIS SAME DIE was in Rauch 67, part I, 26 Feb. 2001, 368 (I tried to acquire it too but was outbid!).
      Does any list member possess a normal aureus or denarius of Titus struck from this same head-left obv. die, and if so, what is the reverse?  It is a matter of some historical significance whether this obverse die belongs to 23 June-31 Dec. AD 79, the first six months of Titus' reign, COS VII on rev., or the next six months, AD 80 up to July 1, COS VIII on rev.  (After that, perhaps because the mint burned down in the fire of 80, no more aurei or denarii were produced at Rome until the accession of Domitian in Sept. 81.)
      Being able to date this obv. die would more or less solve a vexing question, namely when was Vespasian consecrated?
      T.V. Buttrey, following H. Mattingly, believes that the consecration must have been postponed until 80, since all coins of Domitian as COS VI (79), plus a few as COS VII (80), call him simply AVG F, Son of the Augustus.  Only when new aureus and denarius rev. types were introduced for Domitian early in 80 was his filiation changed to DIVI F, Son of the Consecrated Emperor.
      I however think Vespasian was probably consecrated immediately after he died on 23 June 79.  The persistence of AVG F for Domitian into 80 is odd and I cannot explain it, but I think this fact is outweighed by two other considerations.
      First, it was natural, indeed inevitable, that the status of a deceased emperor, deification or condemnation, should be decided by the Senate immediately after his death.  Immediate consecration or condemnation is explicitly attested for a number of other emperors before and after Vespasian.  Delay could occur when the successor wanted consecration to enhance his own prestige but the Senate thirsted for revenge by condemnation, as in the cases of Tiberius and Hadrian, but there was no such disagreement about Vespasian:  both Titus and the Senate surely favored his consecration.  So it is impossible to explain why his consecration should have been postponed for six or more months after his death.
      Second, the mint was striking aurei and denarii for Vespasian in four rev. types during the final six months of his life, Jan.-June 79.  
      When Vespasian died, three of these types were taken over by Titus as Augustus and, judging from the numbers in the Reka Devnia hoard, were struck in about the same volume until the end of 79 as the three types of Titus as Caesar in 79 which he also continued as Augustus.  The aureus and denarius type of Domitian as Caesar in 79 also did not change when Vespasian died. In other words seven of the eight common aureus and denarius types of 79, three of Vespasian which were carried on by Titus, three of Titus himself first Caesar then Augustus, and one of Domitian Caesar, were without doubt struck continuously from beginning to end of the year.
      But what about the fourth common precious-metal type of Vespasian alive in 79, Victory placing shield on Trophy?  This type was not struck for Titus as Augustus, instead we find it with obverse of DIVVS AVGVSTVS VESPASIANVS, and with the titles of Vesp. on reverse changed to EX SC to convert it into a consecration type!  This type was about as common in the Reka Devnia hoard as the six denarius types of Titus as Augustus in the second half of 79.  
      I find it impossible to believe that this type was revived for Divus Vespasian after his alleged delayed consecration early in 80.  It sticks out like a sore thumb among the other precious metal types of Divus Vespasian, as the only one to merely repeat a type of the living Vespasian instead of advertising the new honors that had been decreed with his consecration.  No: obviously the type belongs to the second half of 79, contemporaneous with the other three types of the living Vespasian which Titus had taken over for himself, proving that Vespasian was consecrated immediately after he died!
      This is the same rev. type of Divus Vespasian that was wrongly coupled with an obv. die of Titus as Augustus on the denarius reproduced here.  If my chronology is correct, this will have been an obv. die of AD 79 and will also have been coupled with correct reverses of Titus dated COS VII not COS VIII, if such coins have survived and can be found!  
      I have searched without success for this obv. die in coinarchives, wildwinds, several photofiles compiled from printed sale catalogues and lists, and the major published museum catalogues.
      
Curtis Clay

Offline wolfgang336

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2005, 08:07:47 pm »
Well, to help you out, I spent about an hour and a half going through all of my catalogues and as many online sites as I could find/think of other than those that Curtis searched. I was only able to locate one example of that reverse type, but  that's not what you were gunning for... An elusive type with any obverse!

Evan

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2005, 08:20:39 pm »
Evan,
      Thanks for your effort.  I appreciate the help.
      For anyone who is successful, there's a little personal reward also:  you'll be mentioned in the article I write on the subject and can take pride in having helped to resolve an actual historical dispute!
      You mention finding one coin with similar reverse, but I'm sure you understand that what I am seeking is an ordinary aureus or denarius of Titus from the same OBVERSE die.
       It's not easy to find such possible obverse-die links, because left-facing portraits are substantially scarcer than right-facing ones on the aurei and denarii of Titus as Augustus.
Curtis Clay
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Offline Rupert

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2005, 01:00:44 pm »
No die match for the obverse in the catalogues of Hirsch sales 181 through 227.
Finding a die match for the reverse wasn't hard at all; I KNEW I'd seen it before. One of my first 100 ancient coins, no. 74 actually, bought when I was, I think, seventeen.

Rupert
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Offline Rupert

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2005, 05:26:59 pm »
Here's the picture:
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Offline David Atherton

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2005, 07:12:41 pm »
Being a Flavian collector myself I have quite a few Titus coin photos archived on discs and my computer.

I will search them thoroughly for any obverse die matches with your coin. I would love to see this historical question answered!

Extremly interesting!

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2005, 06:03:41 pm »
      Alex, thanks for confirming my check of coinarchives.  It can happen that one nods and overlooks the key die identity!
      Ember, this type is traditionally regarded as a Jewish victory type so it is in Hendin's book, but David H. surely won't be able to help me with a search for left-facing portraits of Titus Augustus on aurei and denarii!  That is not at all his field.  Naturally I'm relieved that the coin of 80 AD you found is NOT from the required obv. die!
      Rupert, thanks for checking the Hirsch catalogues.  I've been trying to check them as they were issued from 1991 on, but I may well have left out a few.  I should really check my own library of auction catalogues and lists systematically, once I can get it organized and out of the cartons onto shelves!  What a neat coincidence that you have the muled rev. die on a standard coin in your own collection!
      Vespasian70, good luck in your search!
Curtis Clay

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2005, 06:37:58 pm »
Curtis,
I have searched several (250 so far only going back to 1999) UK dealer catalogs (which I am fairly sure will not be duplicating your efforts) in search of a die match. I have only found 2 left facing Titus coins and neither appears to be a die match to your bust. Out of academic interest they were a COS VII, wreath on curule chair, and a COS VIII dolphin on tripod. I will delve into my archive, datiing back to the mid 80's to see what I can find there. The search continues I am afraid.
Regards,
Martin

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2005, 08:28:31 pm »
Martin,
      Thanks for your effort!
      I was not expecting that so many list members would actively search catalogues and data bases on my behalf, so am a little embarrassed to add now:  there is a RIGHT-FACING aureus or denarius obv. die of Titus as Augustus that you could also check for me!
      The BM possesses a unique aureus of Titus as Augustus with portrait r. on obv. and rev. DIVVS VESPASIAN, Seated statue of his consecrated father.  I would of course like to know whether this coin too belongs to 79 or 80 AD!
       I rather suspect, judging from the small portrait, that it belongs to 80, which would not settle the question under discussion.  There are bronze coins dated to 80 that commemorate Divus Vespasian, so it would not be surprising if this aureus too was struck in 80, despite the fact that (as I think) Vespasian had been consecrated six or more months earlier, c. 1 July 79.
       However, if we could show from other coins that this obv. die of Titus, despite the small portrait, had actually been in use in 79, that would strongly support my contention that Vespasian was consecrated immediately after he died, and not only at the beginning of the next year!
       I will try to post the image of this aureus published in the original edition of BMC, which will probably be sharper than the image in the reprints.
Yours,
Curtis
Curtis Clay

Offline wolfgang336

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2005, 11:37:44 pm »
You do so much for us, it's a pleasure to help you out when we can!

Which Museums and major collections have you checked?

Evan

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2005, 11:08:42 pm »
Evan,
       Published catalogues of BM, Paris, Glasgow, Mazzini.  Wildwinds and coinarchives.  Many of the current auction catalogues and lists that have passed through my hands since 1991, plus coins I have seen for sale on the internet.  The Berk photofile, plus the one at the Numismatic Institute of the Univ. of Vienna.  The actual collection of that institute, plus the world-class one at the Coin Cabinet in the Art History Museum in Vienna.
       The matter has become urgent, since Ted Buttrey hopes to complete his new edition of the Flavian RIC within about a year, and it would be nice if he got this question right!  He refuses to accept my arguments so far, but I hope a die link to 79 would bring down the tower!  On the other hand a die link to 80 for the Victory and Trophy type would certainly throw a wrench into my argument!
Yours,
Curtis
Curtis Clay

Offline wolfgang336

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2005, 06:40:22 pm »
It seems we're striking out for you  :( I've been fruitless, and I think Vespasian and Martin haven't been able to find anything. Has anybody tried Oxford? Or is it worth trying at all?

Evan

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2005, 06:50:06 pm »
Evan,
     Thanks for your effort, even if unsuccessful so far!
     ALL museums are obviously worth trying.  In principle, in order not to make extra work and to see with my own eyes, I have put off checking museum collections until I can tour them again in person.
     However, now that a deadline is approaching, I will write to a few museums whose curators I know will happily and reliably check their collections for me, including Oxford and the BM!
Yours,
Curtis
     
Curtis Clay

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2005, 06:36:45 pm »
Curtis,
As Evan has suspected, I have had no luck in finding a die match and have now exhausted my UK dealer catalogs. I covered about 400 in the end but no luck I am afraid.
Regards,
Martin

Offline Pep

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Re:Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2005, 09:59:26 pm »
I have looked through all of the recipients for the Forvm Award For Numismatic Excellence and For Classical Studies and couldn't find a match*.  I also went through all of the future candidates and had no luck.  I sure hope someone can find a match for you before the deadline.

Kevin  :)

* - I looked at the recent posts for Moneta-L.  The Yahoo Groups search engine is a pain as you can only look at a month's worth of posts at a time.  Their photo files are also hard to search.  Perhaps someone knows how to search it more effectively?

Offline Henrik Möller

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 10:40:12 am »
I know this is an old thread, but going through my small collection of flavian coins I found this.
I think this coin is struck with the same obverse die as your coin.
The photo is rather bad but the reverse reads: TR P IX IMP XV COS VIII P P.

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 08:55:53 pm »
Henrik, Wow! It looks like a match to my eyes. If so, because your coin is dated to 80 AD, it does point to the idea Vespasian was consecrated later rather than earlier during Titus' reign. Of course the Divus types could have been struck starting in 79 and continued into 80.

But, then again, perhaps the simplest answer is correct - the Divus types were exclusively contemporaneous with the pulvinar types and not earlier.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2012, 05:27:52 am »
This may be the oldest thread revived so far, but I'm sure Curtis will be delighted. :)

Rupert
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2012, 08:19:37 pm »
Henrik,

Thanks for finding the link, I agree that it seems to be the same obv. die.

I would be really delighted if the rev. of your coin were of 79 rather than 80, supporting my dating of Vespasian's consecration rather than Ted Buttrey's!

I still can't believe that Vespasian's consecration was postponed until 80, for the two reasons stated: precedent and feeling demanded that the emperor's status after death should be settled immediately, and the EX S C Victory crowning trophy type of Divus Vespasian surely must have been struck in 79 rather than 80, carrying on the production of the same type for Vespasian before his death.

So I hope that additional evidence may yet emerge that favors my chronology, for example the discovery of a denarius of Divus Vespasian under the ash and lava from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius!

Then we would have to say that Henrik's denarius is anomalous: either the same obv. die had already been in use in 79 when it was muled with the rev. of Divus Vespasianus, or that rev. die was produced in 79 but anomalously lasted into 80 when it was coupled with the left-facing obv. die of that year.
Curtis Clay

Offline Henrik Möller

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2012, 02:17:43 pm »
Another example from Coin archives of the same type as my coin, struck with the same dies.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2012, 02:38:46 pm »
Yes, I noticed that specimen when it was sold in CNG's E127 of Nov. 2005, and was firmly determined to acquire it for my own collection, but then on the morning of the auction I got involved in other work and forgot to enter my bid!

I didn't post it here because I wasn't absolutely sure of the obv. die identity, and because I was so mad at myself for forgetting to bid!
Curtis Clay

Offline Henrik Möller

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2012, 04:15:00 pm »
To me it looks to have been struck with the same dies. There are a few minor differences but that’s probably due to the strike and the scratch on the portrait.
But regarding to die-links I’m more experienced in dealing with the anglo-saxon coinage and its contemporary Scandinavian imitations.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2012, 07:03:55 pm »
I agree with you that your coin and CNG's are from the same dies, and that my muled coin is also from the same obv. die.
Curtis Clay

Offline Henrik Möller

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Re: Date of Vespasian's consecration
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2012, 07:35:53 pm »
I spent some more time going through Coin archives, acsearch and old catalogues but couldn’t find any more coins struck with the same obv die. Based on the two coins found, both struck in year 80, I think it´s plausible to assume that your coin was stuck in the same year but with an old rev die. It´s possible and it is after all a mule. But on the other hand, the absence of coins struck in the year 79 with this obv die doesn’t mean that none were struck, just that we haven’t found any.

Thank you for your answers.

Henrik Möller

 

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