But the earth is round!

[samnite]

Greetings

This has been sort of bothering me lately.  On the descriptions of many Roman coins, a god or emperor is often described as holding a "globe".  Now if my history serves me correctly, while some ancients realized that the world was more or less round, this was not held as a general belief, and the known world was not depicted as a "globe".

So then, if we say that the personage depicted on a coin was holding a "globe", this is probably an anachonism.   The question that then logically arises is , if that round object being held is not a "globe" as we know it, then what is it?

Awaiting more learned thoughts on this matter.

Ron

P.S.  Another question to ponder.  Why do we never see the headline, "Psychic wins Lottery"?

[vic9128]

They knew the earth was round. Here is an article from the Celator.

http://celator.com/cws/marotta.html

Here is an old link to a thread about this.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=26;action=display;threadid=5673


 Eratosthenes (276 - 195 B.C.) was the first to actually measure the circumference of the Earth. He did this by comparing shadows on the first day of summer. He was in a town in Egypt called Syene and observed that the sun was directly overhead on the day of the summer solstice. In Alexandria, the sun was 7° from the zenith. He assumed Alexandria was due north from Syene. The distance from Alexandria to Syene must be 7/360. The original work "On the Measurement of the Earth" has been lost through the ages, so the exact method Eratosthenes used is not known. Since he knew how far it was from Alexandria to Syene, he used geometry and the difference in zenith angle to estimate the size of the Earth. The distance between the cities was known from caravan travellings to be about 5,000 stadia. He set a value of 700 stadia per degree, which totaled  252,000 stadia. The exact size of  the stadiom he used is unknown, but whichever stadiom he used, the circumference of the Earth was measured somewhere between 39,690 km and 46,620 km.

[samnite]

Thanks for the links.  Yes, I was aware of the experiment with the shadow in the well.  I should have been more specific in my original post.  What I really meant was that while the more learned and specialized of the ancients were probably aware that the earth was a sphere, the general population probably was not.  The general population probably did believe that the earth was round, but in the sense of a round flat disc, i.e., land surrounded by ocean.

The question then is, is that round object a "globe" in the sense that we understand it or a representation of a round but still flat earth as was understood and propagated by the mythology of the time or something totally different, perhaps a "halo" as suggested in the link discussions.

In any case, thanks again.

Ron

[curtislclay]

As I say in the earlier discussion, the globe on coins usually or always represents the globe of the HEAVENS,  the cosmos not just the earth, so is irrelevant to the question whether the ancients knew or did not know that the earth was a sphere.

[Tiathena]

 
   &nd just to add, too – that I believe we can be quite certain it is a spherical orb depicted on the coinage, as well – and not merely the facing side of a round disk, just as in the sculptural equivalents in 3 dimensions, what is held is a spherical orb (a ‘ball’).
 
   ~ Best,
      Tia
 
 

[rick fox]

Samnite,

Your initial premise is incorrect.  People did not believe the earth was flat until it became church doctrine in 700 - 750 or so.  

Also the world is NOT round nor is it a globe.  It is a oblong spheroid (slightly wider at the equator and flatter at the poles).  This is because as it spins, it is compressed.   Just to be technical....

[Numerianus]

Curtis, could you, please, give arguments why for sure the emperor keeps the celestial globe.
I find that psycologically inconsistent.

[curtislclay]

Whenever decorated, on carefully engraved coins or in larger works of art, the globe held by emperors or personifications like Providentia has STARS on it, not terrestrial features.  It is therefore the sphere of the heavens, not the earth.

[rick fox]

An early surviving depiction of the Classical Greek constellations that is substantially complete is the Farnese celestial globe (commonly called the Farnese Atlas (The Atlante Farnese)). It is a large decorative celestial globe. It is basically a statue of the figure of Atlas in a kneeling position holding a celestial globe on his back (i.e., between his shoulders). The name Farnese Atlas was gained from its acquirement by Cardinal Alessandro Farnese in the early 16th-century (and its exhibition in the Palazzo Farnese in Rome). It is now located in the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Naples. One modern estimate dates the statue of Atlas to 73 BCE and (from the position of the constellation figures to the globe's equinox) dates the constellation figures to circa 370 BCE. The interpretation of this dating is the celestial globe is probably a decorative attempt to depict the constellation figures described (circa 275 BCE) by Aratus in his astronomical poem Phainomena. The American astronomer Bradley Schaefer has recently announced (January 2005) his analysis of the globe and concluded that the date of the constellations depicted is indicated as circa 125 BCE. He believes this analysis has been strengthened by comparing the constellation figures with Hipparchus' Commentary. Schaefer's conclusion is that the constellation figures on the Farnese Atlas are an accurate depiction of Hipparchus' lost star catalog. It has been the belief of a number of scholars that the Farnese globe probably embodies the astronomy of both Eudoxus and Hipparchus.

It is known that the Farnese celestial globe was kept in Rome from around 25 BCE.  It may be that the globe was subsumed by the Romans.  Afterall if Atlas could hold the heavens on his back, why not living gods hold it in their hand?

[Tiathena]

 
    Until proven otherwise, it’s my belief that the ‘globe’ in such context is meant to unify both – the terrestrial and the celestial.  Particularly poignant in the ‘Presentation scene’ on coinage, in which you see Jupiter presenting Emperor ‘Victory on a globe,’ etc… and that this is a symbolic device denoting the Emperor’s share in the divine order (divine scheme).
  Id est – Recognition of the Emperor’s accomplishment of the Will of the gods.
 
   Perhaps a precursor establishing (reflecting) formal eligibility/legitimacy for posthumous Consecratio ..?
  The ultimate ‘Triumph.’
 
   ~ Best,
      Tia
 
 

[samnite]

I am very receptive to the arguments that the "globe" is the celestial globe rather than a representation of the planet earth.   The question of what was and who among the ancients believed what concerning the earth then becomes irrelevant.  Curtis, do you know of any examples on-line of coins, medals, or ancient art showing examples of the globe with stars that you described?

Ron

[vic9128]

Here is a pic from Ben.



Here is the link.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=15829;start=msg106584#msg106584

[ysr0123]

As I say in the earlier discussion, the globe on coins usually or always represents the globe of the HEAVENS,  the cosmos not just the earth, so is irrelevant to the question whether the ancients knew or did not know that the earth was a sphere.

i think this a very strong argument specialy in this picture

[Tiathena]

 
    Also in ‘fair’ counter-balance to the (perhaps) somewhat emphatically-celestial aspect of Ben’s FEL TEMP, Phoenix – one might note as well this reverse type of Julia Domna, with Terra reclining beneath tree, right hand on globe with stars … (etc).
 
          RIC 549
 
         
 

  Empress Collector also has one in Gallery:
  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?p=77

   Examples at WW’s, tho’ these lack the clarity which would show the stars…
   http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s6579.html
 

   ~ Best,
      Tia
 
 

[curtislclay]

Tia,
     Why do you call the Domna coin a counterbalance, when the starry globe depicted is clearly that of the heavens, just as on the Phoenix coin?
Yours,
Curtis

[Jochen]

Hi Rick!

You have said:
Also the world is NOT round nor is it a globe.  It is a oblong spheroid (slightly wider at the equator and flatter at the poles).  This is because as it spins, it is compressed.  Just to be technical....

The first sentence is correct, but the next is not! Today we know that the earth has a very irregular shape depending not only as you state on the rotation but on the mass of the material deep under the surface too! Even the surface of the oceans is high and low as measuring from the space has proven. Therefore - because there is no similar body in the known universe - the correct name used I think is 'geoid'!

Regards

[Robert_Brenchley]

The earth is not technically a sphere, but I don't think you could reasonably expect the ancients to have worked that out! There's no doubt that the intelligentsia knew it was round, but they were few and far between (how many had the leisure or the money for study back then?), and there was probably a vast gulf between them and the ordinary people with, possibly, a very different conception. Even the same individual can have different beliefs in different situations; I remember when I was at school, the same kids who 'knew', in a maths lesson, that the probability of a coin turning up heads was the same however many times it had just turned up tails, 'knew' just as certainly that in a cricket match, it was more likely to be heads if it had been tails the time before!

[Numerianus]

Of course, there are two globes: terrestial and celestial.
Probably, the Ancients knew the both.  The question  is: what is the most appropriate
interpretation: Nika stands on the T-globe or on the  C-globe?
The emperor keeps the  T-globe or the  C-globe?
Apparently, Phoenix, the bird,  is associated with the C-globe.
For the emperor it is more natural to keep the C-globe: modest, he never pretended  to be
equal to Iovi.

I am rather  sceptic  to identify coordinates given in Hipparchus
with stars depictions on the C-globe on the shoulders of  Atlas.
Of course,  they are the most distinguished  ones.
There  are a lot of controversies  around the catalogue of Ptolemaeus
(and papers and even books written  about it )...
E.g., the first published catalogues has different  figures: some of them are  updated. because
the coordinates varies die to precession.  
 

[Tiathena]

 
    Curtis,

  I think my ‘point’ here (if I may presume to boast it is even as much as that) is a rather subtle one – at-least as I see it.
  It relates to my concept of the ‘orb’ / ‘globe’ as unifying-symbol – in which neither the terrestrial nor the celestial are the real ‘focal-elements’ – but rather that which stands intermediary between them.
 
  In the case of the FEL TEMP Phoenix, I incline to regard this phoenix as more ‘celestial’ than terrestrial – which may be fundamentally flawed in-itself, but I have some reasons for this leaning – particularly in its employment on the coinage of the Late (christian) Empire.
  In the latter, the Terra, I see of course as more terrestrial than celestial.
 
  There is of course some question, I suppose, on how far one is to take the concept of a celestial-sphere, in which orientation the perceiving of it is intended, and such.  We might think of Ovid and the primordial Cosmic Egg, I suppose – but I have some doubt that this is the essence of the ‘celestial sphere,’ not least in recalling that Ovid’s cosmic ‘egg’ was Chaos.
  I don’t offer any dispute that it is by its very design, a celestial sphere; but suggest that what lends the curvature of the ‘orb’-itself, is a view of the terrestrial through the starry heavens.
  A view of the terrestrial world from the starry heights which itself is conceived or at-minimum, graphically-depicted as spherical (as encompassing)… (&nd not visa-versa).
 
   In any event, the ‘counter-balance’ pertains not to one of celestial sphere –vs- terrestrial sphere, but to that ‘aspect’ which has been associated with the celestial sphere as intermediate between it and the mortal realm.

  I hope this makes some sense explained in this way.
  I wish to be first to say I could of course be wrong, but just wished as well, to share my few thoughts about this ‘question.’

    Yours most respectfully,
     Tia
 
 

[curtislclay]

Thanks for your answer.
My view is simpler.  The celestial globe is what we see above us on clear nights, the star-studded sphere of the heavens.
On the first coin, the phoenix stands on that globe; on the Domna coin, the reclining Earth lays her hand on that globe, while the Four Seasons progress around it.
On the second coin, the Cosmos is shown in its relation to Earth and its affects upon Earth, i.e. Seasons.  But it's the same Cosmos as on the Phoenix coin.

[Tiathena]

 
   Right.  I really don’t see any but the one ‘minor’ point where we differ in view here; and for my part, I can easily accept yours as you’ve just elucidated it.
  The ‘star-flecked heavens’ as the bard would say, receiving its ‘spherical’ shape from its being an encompassing of the terrestrial.  Whether seen from above or below, it’s the same cosmos – (although your view here is simpler and for-that, more elegant than mine, which I thus adopt for the same reason).
 
  The question yet begged (per reverse type), is the significance of the personas associated with the ‘globe’, and – more-specifically – of that association.  Isn’t it?
 
  Thanks for your aid to the better refinement of my thought here, Curtis.

   ~ yours,
      Tia
 
 

[rick fox]

Hi Jochen!

When I worked with geologists, they called it an oblong spheroid.  I have an interesting map of gravity here on the earth.  Somewhere I have a geological picture of the Mexico City earthquake.

The bulge in the earth directly matches the angle of tilt.   I think this is due to the liquid nickel iron core.

Oh well

[cscoppa]

Here is a VERY good depiction of the Heavens

[Claven2]

I know it's a long time ago to drag this topic up again, but what of the Severan Denarius issues depicting various divinities with a rudder on the globe? 

Surely they do not mean to intone the emporer/empress steered the fate of the heavens?  I had always iassumed it meant the emporer through the grace of the divinity depicted, steered the course of the known world.

Or wat of the reverses of victory advancing with a globe... NOT the depiction of Rome conquering the terrestrial world?