Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Imperial Funerals  (Read 21367 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2005, 09:42:39 pm »
Early emperors's body were cremated in contrast to the later period.
  I speculated that Nero's cruel panishments of "Christian terrorists"  (see Tacitus)  were quite logical:
prevent body inhumation. The same logic was used by British colonisators in Middle East who buried corps of Islamic
terrorists in swine skin (no paradise), the method proven to be very dissuasive (have someone confirmations about such a practice?)    Information on Diocletianus makes plausible a hypotheis that he was burried according Egyptian rite (enbalmed?).   

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2005, 10:55:08 pm »
Split is Serbo-Croatian for Spalato, and Spalato come from late antique Greek, eis palation, at the Palace (of Diocletian).  Similarly, medieval Greek for Thebes was Stiva and, of course, Istambul comes from eis ten poli, at the capital (of the Empire).  There are many more, most of which have been restored to a more recognizable form today.  Pat L.
P.S. Galerius also had a mausoleum built for himself in his palace at Thessaloniki (Salonica), which in the early 5th century became the church of St. George.  That is why it is round.  I am sure he was interred there, whether inhumed or first cremated I do not know.

Offline LordBest

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2044
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2005, 12:38:27 am »
What was done with the urns recovered from the Mausoleum of Augustus? Were they preserved or dumped in the Tiber by a bunch of religious fanatics?

Dont forget the tomb of Romulus, son of Maxentius in Rome, also depicted on coins. I seem to remember some debate about whether it was a tomb or a monument, but I dont remember the details and is still referred to as a tomb.
                                                    LordBest. 8)

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2005, 03:40:23 am »
I haven't seen the urns, but I'd GUESS that they are in the magazzini of the Museo Nazionale Romano.  Their finding was, I believe, 20th century, and while Rome is a city of mixed devotion, it is not given to throwing archaeological finds into the Tiber!!!  Patricia Lawrence

Offline LordBest

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2044
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2005, 03:44:12 am »
Good to hear, I wasnt sure if they had been discovered inthe 20th century or earlier. So Gaius & Lucius' urns are in a museum, Octavia and Marcellus also, I assume, and Augustus? Sorry if I'm a bit slow on the uptake today.
                                                   LordBest. 8)

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2005, 03:59:40 am »
I hardly believe that the urns  of the members of the emperors family were ever found.  As objects of the highest artistic and historical value
they would  be  major arocheological discoveries.  Of course, they were looted in Antiquity
Probably, some urns were found in XX century during Mussolini.

Offline LordBest

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2044
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2005, 04:04:37 am »
Dont be so sure, quite a few major archaeological discoveries that deserve mass attention pass by with barely a mention.
                                                       LordBest. 8)

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2005, 04:29:03 am »
As per private e-mail, here is what I found in one of the classic topographical books at Lacus Curtius.  It does explain the evasive generalizations we've been finding!
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/_Texts/PLATOP*/Mausoleum_Augusti.html
Pat L.

Offline LordBest

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2044
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2005, 04:48:57 am »
Aye, its quite vague, the only vaguely specific is in the third footnote relating to Marcellus:
"An inscription bearing his name and that of his mother has been found, and also (probably) the urn of the latter."
"Probably"...
Apparently, the story of Alarics hordes looting the tomb, stealing the urns and emptying the ashes onto the ground outside is not backed up by any historical fact.
                                                     LordBest. 8)

Another view of the inscription slabs in the tomb (restored somewhat under Mussolini)

Excessive editing... The urn of Tiberius was present until the 16th century, given the renaissance was well under way then I'd say there could be a chance it ended up in a private collection, rather then being destroyed. Pure speculation though.

Offline *Alex

  • Tribunus Plebis 2022
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2137
  • Etiam Iovis omnibus placere non possunt.
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2005, 08:04:02 am »
Thank-you Pat for the very interesting link.
I notice that it has been postulated that the Ustrinum Antoninorum could have been a great altar. This, to me, would make perfect sense and resolve the issues regarding the images on the coins and the apparent conflict over burial or cremation. Especially since the name “Ustrinum” (Crematorium) was only given to the structure in the early 18th century without any basis in fact. This last point I was unaware of until I read the link.
I will, then, continue to agree with Chris Scarre who also states “it seems that Antoninus Pius was one of the first Roman emperors to adopt the practice of inhumation”.

Alex.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2005, 04:28:49 pm »
The immured slabs, one of which I photographed and two more that LordBest has posted, are not edited, they are entirely modern, purely informational, certainly fascist in style of lettering for one thing, and clearly dated, 1930, early Mussolini, and not in the least misleading.  The inscription of Augustus, which I posted first, is either a good new cast of the actual fragments of an ancient inscription or actually ancient, I don't know which.  What these exhibits do not tell us, or pretend to tell us, is whether they're in the right places in the Mausoleum.  It has occurred to me, also, that the Augustus one could be a cast of a beautiful inscription of Augustus found elsewhere.  The LSU library, unhappily, does not possess CIL.
I hope no one is looking for proof of any kind in this matter!  I don't think there's been hanky-panky with the antiquities.  It is true that the fascists had 'agenda' in their restorations, but they came from trying to make things more complete than they could be made (that is why the Ara Pacis had to be taken apart and has been inaccessible for about five years: all those boots sticking out, unforeshortened, and a few other details, as in moldings, were pretty disagreeable--not that they didn't wear boots; it was a question of sculptural style).
I hope no one is thinking of standing beside guaranteed emperors' / empresses' bones / ashes.  Like those of Theseus, they couldn't be verified, I'm sure.  Besides, the cult of relics isn't very enlightened, is it?  What can it really mean if the remains of St. Spyridon rise up and wear out his shoe leather by walking around annually on his name day?
Although Platner and Ashby is a bit out of date (last revised 1929), time would be better spent by clicking on each and every one of the ancient sources that are clickable there in Lacus Curtius.   Pat L.
P.S. But I didn't notice the T at the beginning of the inscription; it is of Tiberius, not Augustus.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2005, 01:31:40 pm »
In the catacomb of Praetextatus (?) there is a sarcophagus of Balbinus which is one of the landmarks
of the art history of this period. Unfortunately, I could not find its image on the web.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2005, 02:18:56 pm »
Here it is, another good example of the homeliest emperors hiring the best artists of their time.  From Diana E. E. Kleiner, Roman Sculpture, Yale, 1992.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2005, 11:40:57 pm »
Pat, could you, please, give some commments on this sarcophagus? It seems that it is "presumably"of Balbinus...
In the case, does it existence means that he was inhumed according to the Chretien rite?

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2005, 06:53:03 pm »
There is no inscr on the sarcophagus, but the portrait is Balbinus (see attached).  There are three 3rd c. sarcophagi that may honor Imperial persons, incl. this one.  The lid is in the age-old kline tradition that goes back to Etruscans, but its portrait heads seem to be carved by a special portrait artist.  The portraits of their figures on the body of the sarcophagus, however, appear not to be by that portrait artist.  "The draped figure of Balbinus' wife as Venus demonstrates that the artist...was still concerned not only with classical prototypes but with how wet drapery can enhance the body" (abbreviated quote).  I left out the rest of the text as not directly relevant to your question.  Now, Venus in a wife / marriage context appears later on Galeria Valeria's folles, but taking this as a very traditional sarcophagus and in view of the statue of Balbinus as Jupiter (attached) , I am puzzled how anyone can have thought of this emperor as a candidate for Christianity, even though nothing 'proves' anything.
Also, who has the idea that it is particularly, peculiarly Christian to prefer inhumation?  There seems to have been a gradual and pervasive shift.  So much so that Paul of Tarsus had to protest to the Corinthians, you sillies, not THOSE bodies!
What I'd like to know is why it ended up in the Praetextatus catacomb.  I'll get back to you if I find out.
Pat Lawrence

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2005, 10:47:21 pm »
Actually, its being in the Catacomb of Praetextatus pretty well precludes a funeral according to the Christian rite for anything in it.  Thank you for sending me to the OCD for Praetextatus (320-384) a senator who was a resolute opponent to Christianity, though he and his wife were deeply involved in other religions and in philosophies.  All told, he is one of the interesting characters of 4th-century Rome.  The point is, which in general I did know, not all catacombs are Christian.  I also had learned from "Roma e dintorni" that (as of 1977) the Praetextatus catacomb was not open to the public but only to serious students (and that doesn't mean term papers) who had applied formally in advance to the Pontifici Commissione di Archeologia Sacra, via Napoleone III, 1.  It did seem obvious that guided tours to this particular catacomb were not of interest to those who control it.
I still don't know why this sarcophagus, which I think surely is of Balbinus (he holds Imperial attributes, and it resembles his coins, and the style and technique are just right for 238, and it can hardly be less than Imperial), ended up in the catacomb of Praetextatus.  I didn't find any hint of its being appropriated for Praetextatus or of their families being related.
Recently some post-Constantinian sets of small statuettes of standard non-Christian deities have been found (in a thread here  http://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/article.asp?idart=11809  posted 12 June by LordBest) and there are comparable Aesclepieian ones in the National Museum in Athens, and about 3-5 years ago a whole set was found in a house (as I recall) in the excavations at Corinth.  From such occurrences it seems likely that between Constantine and Theodosius a whole class of high-ranking persons tried to maintain their own heritage.  Praetextatus, in fact, at the time of his death in 384 was Praetorian Prefect of Italy and Consul Designate.  Pat L.
P.S. R. Bianchi Bandinelli, Rome: The Late Empire (Brazilier, 1971) in his caption to a detail of the sarcophagus, p. 24, fig. 19, says it's in the "Museum of Pretestato Catacombs".  I wish I had the original language edition.  But that might explain why in the last generation this beautiful sarcophagus has begun to be illustrated in books.  Bianchi Bandinelli would certainly know where to see it, if anyone would.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2005, 05:08:27 am »
Thanks a lot, Pat! I am very happyy that  a simple question gave rise to such an interesting development!
My main source of information on Balbinus is Scriptores Historiae Augustae. but this part seems to be, to large extension a fiction,
in particular,  a mix up of Pupiennus and Maximus.  An interestng bust of Balbinus  one can find here:
http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/photo_ME0000080619.html

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals--re Praetextatus Catacomb
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2005, 05:12:50 pm »
Amanda Claridge's Oxford Archaeological Guide to Rome (Oxford, 1998), while giving only greater clarity in describing the Mausoleum of Augustus, is very clear on the Catacombs of Praetextatus, where the famous sarcophagus of Balbinus is:
pp. 416-417.  These catacombs are of great interest but much work remains to be done, both excavation and research.  The eoponymous Praetextatus might have been the landowner.  Burial, both Roman and Christian, at the site dates from the C 1 to the C 4.  It seems that in the C 3 the unuaually spacious central gallery (spelunca magna--'great cave', which probably began life as a cistern), the adjoinging area and the part above ground, were used for the burial of Roman aristocrats including the emperor Balbinus (238), many of whom might not have been Christian.  It seems likely that many of the Christians later buried here were also of high social rank.
There are two more paragraphs, but this one seems to provide as much as we know concerning the questions raised last month.  My books are in such confusion at this moment that it took me weeks to find this in my office.  Pat L.
P.S. This is an excellent book, invaluable in finding one's way through the more complicated monuments and not missing things that are just around the corner from where you are.  P.L.

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2005, 04:17:57 am »
The subject is related with several threads but I give a reference here. 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0720_050720_christianity.html


These pages give a description of a note published in the recent issue of the journal Nature
that the Jewish burials in the catacombs of Villa Torlonia existed one hundreds years before
Christian burials.  This confirms the thesis that the Roman Christianism quite
a long time was just a secte of the Judaism: the  separation was not fast as it was
believed earlier but took centuries... 

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2005, 01:00:53 pm »
I don't know who argues that Christianity 'came into its own' in the early 1st Century, with no Jewish influence thereafter,  but they're surely not serious modern scholars! It was a long process which began when the Pauline splinter-group started accepting Gentiles as equals rather than as tolerated aliens, and accelerated after the destruction of the Temple when the Pharisees, who were in the process of reinventing themselves as the first Rabbis, barred Christians from the synagogues. It's not clear how widespread or effective this decree was, and I remember reading somewhere that as late as the 4th Century, many Christians still attended synagogues. 2nd-Century Christian writers are still very heavily influenced by Judaism, and it's only at the end of the century that Clement of Alexandria emerged as the first major Christian thinker whose writings are clearly Hellenistic rather than Jewish. This only happened after the defeat of the bar-Kochba rebellion was followed by a generation of Christian writers who consciously set out to reinvent their faith in a way that was acceptable to Rome, and distanced themselves from the Jews in the process. Hellenistic Christianity only really came to the fore in the 3rd Century. You could very well argue that Jewish influence continues almost unnoticed to this day; church services still follow the pattern originally set by the Synagogue service, fir instance.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2005, 06:38:12 am »
I have in mind this quote from National Geographic News:

`Given that Christianity grew out of Judaism, it might seem a fair assumption that Jewish customs also influenced early Christian burials. Yet ever since catacomb studies began in the 16th and 17th centuries, Christian scholars appear to have overlooked the Jewish connection.

The reason for this is theological, according to Rutgers, the lead study author.

"These scholars weren't interested in Judaism," he said. "It may sound very silly today, but they didn't like the idea that Christianity had Jewish roots. Therefore, they thought it wise not to investigate.'

What is interesting for me is the question when the Christanity became not to be just a secte of Judaism.  Unlike Judaism which ethnicaly based  Christianity
is universal. Am I right that the critical instant arrived when ethnical Jews Christians  becomes a small fraction of all  Christians in Rome? When it could happen?   


Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2005, 03:57:33 pm »
If it can be put down to a 'critical moment' at all, it would be the destruction of the Temple. Until then, Pauline (non-Torah observant) Christianity had been a splinter group which was tolerated within a larger movement of Jesus people centred on Jerusalem. With Jerusalem out of the equation, it began to drift away from Judaism, which re-invented itself and went off in a different direction. It was a long process of evolution though, you can't tie it down to any one moment. It's true that 16th-17th Century scholars ignored Christianity's Jewish roots, though Rutgers appears to be ignoring an element of anti-Semitism in the equation. To this day, very few people apart from scholars recognise it.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Numerianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • I love this forum!
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2005, 10:00:07 pm »
Could do you, please, make a precision about the anti-Semitism? The problem is that this word is a relatively new one and its meaning was recently
extended. In a broad sense you may have in mind a religeous intolerance which was a reasons for great disasters even withing Christian
world.  I know an example (of XVIII) when, to avoid persecutions, a Christian community made a conversion to Judaism.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2005, 11:17:29 pm »
I ought to be able to find an Anglican or Greek service book in this house, but I'm going to have to do without looking it up.  When after leaving the convent in 1981 I happened to be invited to a friend's Seder I noticed (what I previously had ignored) that the readings were the same as in the Anglican / Episcopalian Easter eve service, only we had read them in English.  Most family parishes, of course, omit this long service (it is not obligatory), but there it is.  I found it in a Greek service book, too, and I daresay the Roman Catholics and Lutherans have it for use if they wish.
The point is, in the very heart of observance and faith, there is every imaginable kind of continuity—even if it's mostly monks and nuns who use it today.  And there is all the Typology.
And even people whose belief is just deism and reverence (say, Stoicism) cherish this sharing of age-old traditions.  Once I was in Beth Israel hospital in New York, and I was welcome to share their Seder.  Reverent people are not opposed to reverent people of other traditions.  And, no, I am not a flower child from the sixties.
Pat L.  (yes, this is off topic, and I won't do it again)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2005, 09:18:39 am »
I think the core of antisemitism lies in the church's tendency to blame 'the Jews' for the Crucifixion. The Gospel writers blamed them rather than the Romans as they didn't want to seem anti-Roman, and in the aftermath of 70, the Jews were a useful scapegoat, especially given the tensions between the church and the proto-Rabbis at that period. That's one thing, but the way the texts were used subsequently to vilify all Jews of future generations was another. By the late medieval period, they were acting as bankers for the nobility; Christians weren't allowed to lend money at interest, and there wasn't much else a wealthy Jew was allowed to do. By the end of the 13th century, the Italians were replacing them, royal protection was withdrawn, and all Jews were expelled from England in 1290; you could probably see a sort of proto-antisemitism in this, as you could in the mass persecution of Jews across Western Europe during the Crusades. The reaction against the arrival of an overwhelmingly powerful  Islamic civilisation in Spain gave rise to a wave of xenophobia, and the Jews were an easy target. The Reformation took it a step further; some of the things Martin Luther said about the Jews could easily be used to give persecution respectability. With the fall of Constantinople, the conquest of the Americas, and the advent of the slave trade, you get a society with a growing conviction of its own superiority to others, with the Jews as an ever-present, ever-vulnerable minority, available for use as scapegoats whenever convenient. Hence the pogroms. In that climate, I think religious scholars were simply blinded to the good things the church recieved from Judaism, and took the idea of supercessionism(Christianity superceding Judaism, which is abandoned by God) to extremes. So to this day you still sometimes hear preachers contrasting the 'glories' of Christ with the 'empty legalism' of the Jews. I've spent the last 20 years telling congrgations that Jesus was a Jew, that no New Tesatament writer ever suggestds that they're starting a new religion, etc. etc., and I sometimes wonder whether anyone ever listens!
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity