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Author Topic: Imperial Funerals  (Read 21368 times)

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Paul Oatman

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Imperial Funerals
« on: November 30, 2004, 03:37:23 pm »
Hello all,

I have a question for the scholars in the bunch.  Did they bury any Roman emperors leaving earthly remains?  If so, where are their tombs.  One would expect something grand but I've never heard anything about grand imperial tombs.  I was reading a reference to the battle of Hadrianople and the loss of the body of Valens, and this question crept into my mind?

Anyone who knows or would like to hypothesize,  please speak up.  

Thanks so much

Paul Oatman

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Re:Imperial Funerals
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2004, 04:47:33 pm »
This brings to mind other questions.  If there are Christian Imperial tombs, have they been plundered?  I see tons of commentary about Egyptian royal tombs and their failures.  Big and beautiful means plundered and empty usually.  Did the Romans know something that the Egyptians did not? Or were all the Roman emperors simply sent up to the gods as incense?

Perhaps some Roman nobility has been preserved by the Church in Rome.  Did they do anything for Helena after all she did for them?  Just a thought.

Thanks to anyone who knows.

Paul

Offline PeterD

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Re:Imperial Funerals
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2004, 06:25:08 pm »
Two of the largest tombs still exist in Rome. That of Augustus and that of Hadrian. In fact Hadrian's was so large it later became a castle. It is now called Castel Sant' Angelo. Of course the emperors were cremated before burying.

The huge porphry sarcophagus intended for Constantine but actually used for Helena still exists and is now in the Vatican. It comes from the ruins of a mausoleum that Constantine had built. Constantine changed his mind and was buried in Constantinople. I should imagine most imperial burials after that were in tombs in churches. Of course, after 1453 churches in Constantinople were changed into mosques.
Peter, London

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Paul Oatman

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Re:Imperial Funerals
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2004, 08:36:40 pm »
Thank you.  I looked around using your information and found this web page with very similar information...

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Now, can anyone name a Roman leader who meets the following requirements...

1.  They are represented in Roman Imperial Coinage, ie. you can buy one of their coins from FORVM

2.  They were buried without being cremated first

3.  They have a structure/tomb devoted to them that still stands today

4.  In theory (this could be controversial), their earthly remains are still inside this structure or have been whisked away for reburial elsewhere, ie the Vatican

In other words, is there any place where I could visit and truly say that I had stood next to.... <insert famous Roman noble here>.... etc

What's the verdict?

Thanks guys

Paul

seth

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2005, 04:11:07 pm »
the tomb of the constantinian family didnt make it thorough the ages.. and thats a sad thing..

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2005, 06:27:33 am »
The story is extremely obscure. The tombs of Augustus and  Hadrian are cyclopic
constructions. I read somewhere that it is not so clear that they are  the tombs,
no confirmations by sources which should provide an information.
Why only these two and not others? Two imperial tombs in 3 centuries? 
The cremation of  emperors (the size of funeral pire) makes dubious that one can find after even minor remains...    

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2005, 08:45:09 am »
The empty sarcophagus of Constantine's wife, Helena, who appears on coins (as well as that of his daughter Constantia) are on display at the Pio-Clementine museum in the Vatican, having been moved there from their original location at the mausoleums attatched respectively to the St. Pietro et Marcellinus and St. Agnes Constantinian basilicas.

Here's Helena's sarcophagus. Constantine had originally intended it for himself (hence the military theme), but was then instead (fancying himself as the 13th apostle) buried at St. Peter's.

http://sights.seindal.dk/photo/9017f.html  (click on "view original" to see larger version)

St. Helena's remains were removed (to where I'm not sure), in the 12th century when Pope Anastasius IV decided to reuse the sarcophagus for himself!

Oddly the Popes seem to have had no qualms about desecrating the graves of Saints, as Constantine's grave was also plundered:

In the chronicle of Nicolò della Tuccia of Viterbo is the following entry, dated 1458: "On the 27th day of June, news was circulated in Viterbo that two days before a great discovery had been made in S. Peter's of Rome. A priest of that church, having manifested the wish to be buried in the chapel of S. Petronilla, in the tribune on the right, where the story of the emperor Constantine was painted in ancient times, they found, while digging there, a tomb of exquisite marble, containing a sarcophagus, and inside of it, a smaller coffin of cypress wood overlaid with silver. This silver, of eleven carats standard, weighed [A unit conversion]eight hundred and thirty-two pounds. The bodies were wrapped in a golden cloth which yielded [A unit conversion]sixteen pounds of that precious metal. It was said that the bodies were those of Constantine and his little son. No written record or sign was found except a cross made in this shape: "+" The Pope, Callixtus III., took possession of everything and sent the gold and silver to the mint."

From CHAPTER IV. "IMPERIAL TOMBS" of Pagan and Christian Rome by Rodolfo Lanciani.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/_Texts/Lanciani/LANPAC/home.html

Elsewhere in the same book (I forget where), Lanciani also recounts how the grave of St. Peter himself was discovered under St. Peters, still with a gold cross placed on it by Constantine, and the spot was immediately sealed and left as is - presumably still there to this day.

I've only dipped into this online text, but there are numerous snippets in it of extreme interest. Another account in there is of the discovery in 1485 of a perfectly preserved body of a roman noblewoman, covered in an inch thick layer of "aromatic paste". The body was so well preserved that the skin/flesh still sprung back when poked, and she was described as extremely beautiful. The body was apparently subsequently tossed into the Tiber!

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/_Texts/Lanciani/LANPAC/6*.html#sec27

Ben

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2005, 08:53:59 am »
There is also the mausoleum of Galla Placidia in Ravenna, although there still seems to be some debate about whether or not this is actually her tomb. :)

http://www.ravennavisitcard.com/english/e_gallaplacidia.html

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2005, 02:02:36 pm »
I haven't read most of the huge bibliography, so I have been watching this thread but refraining from entering.  Still: I was taught that the Mausoleum of Augustus was used to inter most Imperial persons until it was effectively full (so Trajan was interred in the base of his column).  When you visit it you can see inscriptions for the burials of, e.g., Gaius and Lucius and others of your 'friends', but these seem to be modern (replacements?--the actual inscriptions being removed for safety?).  I have assumed that from Hadrian onward, the 'Castel St. Angelo' was used, but I haven't been in it, and I wouldn't expect, from what I've read, for anything ancient to be left in it, its subsequent history has been so complex.  I am sorry that I have been content with what I was taught.  I have a recent edition of that best of guidebooks, Guida di Italia, Roma e dintorni, and I'll see if it says anything contrary about the Mausoleum of Augustus.  For a long time it was closed, and I actually visited its interior for the first time in 2002.  Pat L.

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2005, 07:33:52 pm »
Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nerva - Buried in the Mausoleum of Augustus.
Nero - Buried in the family tomb of the Domitii on the Pincian Hill.
Vespasian - Buried in Mausoleum of Augustus, later transferred to the Temple of the Flavian Family.
Titus, Domitian - Buried in the Temple of the Flavian Family.
Trajan - Buried at the base of Trajan's Column.
Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Lucius Verus, Commodus, Septimius Severus, Caracalla - Buried in the Mausoleum of Hadrian (Castell St.Angelo).
Didius Julianus - Buried in his Great-Grandfather's tomb on the Via Labica outside Rome.
Gallienus - Buried in a tomb on the Via Appia.
Constantine I - Buried in the Church of the Holy Apostles, Constantinople.

That's the last resting places that I know of. Of course there were several ended up being thrown into the Tiber ...  :)

Alex.

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2005, 09:04:12 pm »
Constantine I - Buried in the Church of the Holy Apostles, Constantinople.

You are of course correct - he wanted to be buried among the (relics of the) apostles.

I wonder why it was supposed that the tomb in St. Peters was his? Perhaps it was moved at some point?

Ben

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2005, 10:37:39 pm »
Constantine intended to be buried at Rome in the circular Tor Pignattara Mausoleum beside the Via Labicana when he was only Emperor of the West, before he defeated Licinius. Both it and his huge porphyry sarcophagus were subsequently used by his mother, Helena. Constantia, Constantine's daughter also got a "second hand" funerary monument, she was buried in the Mausoleum and Sarcophagus originally intended for Constantines's second wife, Fausta. This Mausoleum is now the Church of Santa Costanza.

Alex.

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2005, 02:14:37 am »
It seems to be generally accepted that Julia Domna was the last buried in the Mausoleum of Augustus and this because she claimed Julio-Claudian ancestry.  I thought (as a consequence of reading how little the monument has been open) you might like to see one of the inscriptions set up again.

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2005, 11:37:24 am »
I wonder why it was supposed that the tomb in St. Peters was his? Perhaps it was moved at some point?

Ben


Constantine was responsible for the building of the original St Peter's in Rome. It was he who levelled the Vatican site now occupied by the "new" St Peter's which is built upon the old one. I can't find anything suggesting that he intended it to be his place of burial though.

Alex.

Paul Oatman

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2005, 09:30:55 pm »
Wow.  Thanks guys for raising this thread from the dead with such wonderful information.  To clarify though, did anyone make it through time still interred somewhere confirmable?  Is there anyone at all that you could walk up to a monument in a church or anywhere, and say truly that they are (atleast supposed to be) in there.  Like the beautiful tombs for the English kings in Westminster Abbey.  Not just this is where they were or almost were.  (Although that is still extremely interesting.  :)  .)  Are we just going by historical documents or have any of these resting places actually been put through their archaeological paces-resulting maybe in someone gasping when they realized they were brushing an emperor?


Habeas Corpus?

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2005, 02:42:17 am »
I don't know.  But there's this plaque in the wall in the Mausoleum of Augustus that says, as I read it, The Bones of C. Caesar, son of Augustus [adopted], Princeps Juventutis.  At least, they think they found his bones there, it seems.  The lump in the foreground is a fallen hunk of concrete showing opus reticulatum.  Pat Lawrence

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2005, 04:34:05 am »
As I mentioned already, all this stories are not very reliable. Since the body were cremated in a strong fire,
the remnants should be ashes put in a funeral vase which was a valuable object. I think that they should disappear
without any traces. The plates could be authentic. However, in the Renaissance period there were a lot of amateurs
to restore the antiquity. An example: in Padua there is a tomb of Athenor, a hero of Troyan war.  There was an archeologist who believe in this and propagate the legend. A colleague told be that  a recent study of bones attributed them to 10-11 century.  In Padua there is a tomb of St. Luca. Very modest tomb in huge St.Justine basilique (n. 9 in size in the world). I was very surpised that until recenly it was not properly venerated.   

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2005, 04:41:27 am »
I don't know.  But there's this plaque in the wall in the Mausoleum of Augustus that says, as I read it, The Bones of C. Caesar, son of Augustus [adopted], Princeps Juventutis.  At least, they think they found his bones there, it seems.  The lump in the foreground is a fallen hunk of concrete showing opus reticulatum.  Pat Lawrence

I was last there in '95. From what I remember it was a little eerie, but very interesting nevertheless. I think you're right about the bones: one of the guys on duty there at the time mentioned words to that effect. :)

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2005, 07:42:28 am »
As I mentioned already, all this stories are not very reliable. Since the body were cremated in a strong fire,
the remnants should be ashes put in a funeral vase which was a valuable object. I think that they should disappear
without any traces.

Further to my post on last resting places (which I didn't go into detail about) as Numerianus says it was in many cases the ashes and not the actual bodies that were interred in the various mausolea, probably in very valuable receptacles. It is reported that Trajan's urn was of solid gold.

That said, however, from my information, I have compiled the following:-

Ashes: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian, Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Septimius Severus, Caracalla,

Bodies: Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Lucius Verus, Commodus, Didius Julianus, Constantine.

Unclear whether Bodies or Ashes : Claudius, Nero, Gallienus.

Thrown into the Tiber : Vitellius, Elagabalus.

Alex.  :)

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2005, 08:17:10 am »
What are your sources  for Antoninus Pius and Mark Aurelius?  There are coins with funeral pyres for these emperors...

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2005, 08:51:36 am »
My source is "Chronicle of the Roman Emperors" by Chris Scarre citing the biographer of Antoninus Pius.  The text states clearly that the body of Antoninus Pius was laid to rest, with magnificent funerary rites, in the Mausoleum of Hadrian alongside those of his wife and of two sons who had died some twenty years previously. There is no mention of cremation and furthermore it is just at this time that the practice of inhumation becomes fashionable.

Then again, the coins do not depict funeral pyres, that is a misconception, the building which is depicted on the coins of Antoninus Pius, the remains of which exist to this day near the Column of Antoninus Pius on the Campus Martius, is thought to be an Ustrinum. These buildings were of stone and seem to bear a resemblance to the Mausoleum of Halikarnassos.
 
Just to confuse things, Ustrinum is latin for Crematorium so perhaps he and Marcus Aurelius were in fact ultimately cremated.  ???  Perhaps the bodies were just "laid out" for a period of mourning in the Mausoleum of Hadrian and this is what the biographer refers to. Perhaps the Ustrinum was only used for some funerary rite concerning the emperor's deification, it would seem unlikely that the building was a crematorium in the modern sense with the body being burned within it. Incidentally remains of the Ustrinum of Marcus Aurelius were also found in the same vicinity as that of Antoninus Pius.

Conflicting opinions, perhaps I have read too many books. lol.  ;D ;D

Alex.

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2005, 08:56:47 am »
As a wee addition, below is a picture of the "Portland Vase" (now in the British Museum) a first century funerary urn. This item, although not made of precious metal, would have been a hugely expensive object at the time, possibly worth even more than its weight in gold.
The base has been broken off in antiquity, it was probably originally more amphora shaped.
Due to the circumstances of it's discovery some four hundred years ago it is not known whose ashes were deposited within.  :'(

Alex.

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2005, 10:03:34 am »
My source is "Chronicle of the Roman Emperors" by Chris Scarre citing the biographer of Antoninus Pius.  The text states clearly that the body of Antoninus Pius was laid to rest, with magnificent funerary rites, in the Mausoleum of Hadrian alongside those of his wife and of two sons who had died some twenty years previously. There is no mention of cremation and furthermore it is just at this time that the practice of inhumation becomes fashionable.

Inhumation or cremation? This is certainly a burning question. ;D
It would be interesting to check out the original Latin text of the biographer, but I'm clutching at straws here. This online source agrees with your source:

http://www.roman-empire.net/highpoint/antoninus.html

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2005, 06:03:50 pm »
For Gaius and Lucius, inter alios, the Roma e dintorni (no little 100-pager but an 800 page official book) says that the urns were found.  It should be remembered that cremation urns contained not the pale gray ash that moderns may prefer to scatter at sea or from a mesa rather than enshrine on the mantelpiece but ashes combined with considerable parts of bones not burnt.  Therefore, the plaque saying OSSA CAESARIS, etc., photo above, is not necessarily contradictory, though it looks post-1936 to me.*  Besides, Chris Scarre's edition of the HA probably does not give the Latin and, evidently, does not mention mere Caesars.  As for coins with wedding-cake pyres, we aren't sure, are we, that we ought to take them literally.  For example, if an Antonine emperor wished to be inhumed fresh, so to speak, the public ceremonies might have been carried out in the customary way nonetheless, and the tiered pyre accordingly placed on the consecratio issue.
I don't mind much what they did (agreeing as I often do with Paul of Tarsus about bodies), but it's not as if we had first-hand accounts, unedited.
Pat Lawrence
* I went back to the full-size image and zoomed: the plaque is in fact officially dated, "ANNO MCMXXX", so earlier than I guessed.  But it certainly isn't deceptive, marked that way.  I have read two other serious Italian guides and like Rome e dintorni they say that in one niche were found the urns of Gaius and Lucius and in one oopposite those of Octavia and Marcellus; Augustus was in the very center.  Staccioli also calls attention to the fact that from the very beginning, evidently, it was called 'Mausoleum', a deliberate reference to that of Mausolus at Halicarnassus, one of the Seven Wonders.  Staccioli's Guida di Roma Antica has the clearest diagram and the clearest explanation of how it was built.

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2005, 09:17:26 pm »
Diocletian's mausoleum is in his place in Split, Croatia.  Extracts from the web:

"Split, with a population of almost one quarter million people, is the principal Dalmatian coastal city. In addition to its importance as Croatia's major port on the Adriatic and its industrial base, the city also is best known as the retirement home of the Croatian-born Roman emperor Diocletian whose huge and well-preserved palace/fortress now forms the heart of the old city. The palace grounds are filled with triumphal arches, imported Egyptian sphinxes and interesting reminders of the Roman Empire at its grandest. Among the places of interest is Diocletian's tomb, now officially a Christian cathedral, making it the smallest in Europe. The emperor's body is no longer there, but the irony remains. He was one of the worst persecutors of Christians, perhaps egged on by the fact that his empress became a Christian. She clearly had the last word."

http://www.st.carnet.hr/split/mauzolej.html
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Experimental/split/mausoleum.html

"The central courtyard of Diocletian's palace is now old Split's main square. The shell of the ruined palace provides a checkerboard street plan, four gates, and a town easy to navigate.
This sphinx, from ancient Egypt, was one of a dozen, which stood at the entrance to Diocletian's tomb. Inside, the columns, carvings and original fine brick dome survive. Ironically, the mausoleum of the Roman emperor famous for his persecution of Christians became the town's cathedral. And, to add insult to injury, the remains of the bishop Diocletian had beheaded now rest here, in the tomb meant for the emperor. The bishop's sarcophagus dates from the early 4th century."


Eugene




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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2005, 09:42:39 pm »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2005, 12:38:27 am »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2005, 03:44:12 am »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2005, 03:59:40 am »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2005, 04:04:37 am »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2005, 04:48:57 am »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2005, 08:04:02 am »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2005, 04:28:49 pm »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2005, 01:31:40 pm »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
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Re: Imperial Funerals
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Re: Imperial Funerals
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Re: Imperial Funerals
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2005, 05:08:27 am »

Offline slokind

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Re: Imperial Funerals--re Praetextatus Catacomb
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2005, 05:12:50 pm »

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2005, 04:17:57 am »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2005, 01:00:53 pm »
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2005, 06:38:12 am »

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2005, 03:57:33 pm »
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2005, 10:00:07 pm »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2005, 11:17:29 pm »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2005, 09:18:39 am »
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2005, 10:02:13 am »

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2005, 08:35:36 pm »
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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2007, 05:19:35 pm »

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Re: Imperial Funerals
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2007, 07:22:18 am »

 

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