Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?  (Read 14792 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline featherz

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • All Elagabalus provincials to me, please! :)
    • Aeqvitas.com
Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« on: October 30, 2004, 10:43:38 pm »
Elagabalus from? Any significance to the reverse scene?


Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re:Any guesses on this one?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2004, 12:48:23 am »
How do you do it!  What a wonderful coin!
Look at all the plates in Imhoof-Blumer's publications.  It isn't, so far as I recall, in Pick's old article, Thrakische Münzen, on pl. 10 of the Jahrbuch des deutschen archaeologischen Instituts for 1898.  I just called up the old computer for the scans I hope I have of the text of that article, since he starts out with Orpheus coins, and I think that Orpheus is a much better bet than Little Boy Blue.
Traianopolis?  Hadrianopolis?  Do I see some of the letters of Kallatis (no, they had nearly nothing for Elagabalus)?  I see that Traianopolis has an Harpokrates for your boy, but not an Orpheus (nor a Paris), and Hadrianopolis did not issue for Elagabalus.
If I find anything, I'll get back.   Pat L.
P.S.  Since it doesn't look Thracian anyway, I tried Alexandreis in Egypt, which B. V. Head HN p. 862 says has an "Orpheus charming the wild beasts" (why not Paris-Alexander tending his father Priam's flocks?).  It's buried in text in the third quarter of the page.  Doesn't say whether it's Elagabalus.  Compared with some silver and terracotta and 'faience' reliefs I've seen, I could imagine this pictorial scene being sub-Ptolemaic, as it were.  (Alexandria herself, BMC pl. XI, has an Orpheus, but it is the usual seated in the center on a rock, animals close around).
On Pick's 1898 plate, one Orpheus is on a coin clearly legible as Philippopolis, but it's not like yours.
Anyhow, I think yours is some other shepherd, such as Paris, because those are tame sheep!  P.L.

Offline whitetd49

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1540
  • FEL TEMP REPARATIO
    • Coins of the Severan Dynasty at Stobi
Re:Any guesses on this one?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2004, 09:09:44 am »
Heather, wonderful coin.  I have very little to offer but perhaps I can make a search a little easier.  Those are not sheep, they are goats.
If you watch long enough, even a treefrog is interesting.  Umberto Eco
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10349

Offline featherz

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • All Elagabalus provincials to me, please! :)
    • Aeqvitas.com
Re:Any guesses on this one?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2004, 09:13:37 am »
Yes, they do appear to be goats or antelope to me as well.  Am I seeing things or do all of them appear to share one head? :)

Offline Britannicus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
    • Eros on Roman Provincial Coinage
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2004, 02:30:15 pm »
What an amazing coin! Where do you find them?!
I read KAI(C)... on the reverse, and it doesn't look terribly Cappadocian. How about Caesareia Germanica in Bithynia? There is a fairly similar cuirassed bust of Elagabalus, with a not dissimilar (uncharacteristic) weedy-apprehensive portrait of Elagabalus in SNG Österreich / Sammlung Leypold, volume I, no.126, 28 mm., 6 o'clock die axis. Only a guess, though.

canadian_boy

  • Guest
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2004, 02:40:05 pm »
Is that not the god Pan playing the reeds or flute? I can't tell if the figure has cloven hoofs - if so, then it is Pan ( the patron god of shepards and goat herders).  And yes, the 3 heads of the goats appear to be one head? Religious symbolism of some kind.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2004, 06:33:08 pm »
Pan (cf. the one stomping on the panther, e.g.) cannot cross his legs that way, and he doesn't wear hats.  Goats, yes, but not wild goats.  P.L.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2004, 06:45:10 pm »
Well, maybe no hat at all.  Besides, if you want ALMOST a Pan, what about a little satyr boy, a faun, like this famous one, pose and all.  This is the Louvre copy.   Pat
P.S. It dates from the late 4th century (for the creation of the original) and is quite Lysippic, but perhaps sweeter.  There are many, many copies, most of them made grotesque by 16th to 19th century restorations, but the Louvre one is OK.  He has pointed ears and a cute little tail.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2004, 11:42:37 pm »
Trachonitis, Caesareia Panias?
Well, with goat legs, true, Pan can't stand cross-legged, but I just noticed something in Head Historia Numorum, p. 786, for Trachonitis, at Caesareoa Panias, "at the foot of Mt. Hermon (BMC Galat. p.  lxxx f.)"...Imperial M. Aurelius to J. Maesa..."Types--Zeus; Pan standing playing flute; Temenos of Pan, within which the god standing; Lagobolon and syrinx..."  So try KAISAR PANIADOS or PANIAS.  There is also a legend that is a string of abbreviations.  You can get that easier at HN on line, s.v. Caesareia Panias, or under Trachonitis, than here.  Might be a false scent--or not.
Pat Lawrence
See Lindgren&Kovacs, pl. 87 no. 2193 for M. Aurelius, as well as Lindgren 3, p./pl. 72, no. 1295, for Geta.  Your figure, but neither of them has the goats!
Maesa and Elagabalus both have statue of Pan in semi-circular enclosure: GIC 3103 and 3253.  Cannot locate for Caracalla with my limited resources.
See Price & Trell, figs. 10-12, opp. p. 21.
We may have nailed it (or else nailed the 'Piping Faun' statue!), but, if so, your coin may be new and very special!  Maybe Imhoof in Heaven is looking down on it.
P.L.

a

  • Guest
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2004, 01:14:54 pm »
Hi All,

This is Caesaria Panias (todays Banias in Golan Hights) for 100%. It is famous sculpture of Pan with three goats with one common head. I don't know the reference but I have picture of this coin in "Civic coins of Israel cities in ancient times".

Explorer

Offline featherz

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • All Elagabalus provincials to me, please! :)
    • Aeqvitas.com
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2004, 01:18:20 pm »
Wow, thank you Explorer! Any more information you could give us would be appreciated. Any pictures of the sculpture itself, maybe?

And thank you pat as well, seems you were definitely on the right track.. :)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2004, 04:27:09 pm »
Hendin doesn't list this coin, but his 892, of Panias, has a nude Pan reverse, leaning on tree with legs crossed, lesning on tree and playing on flute, which looks similar to the figure on this reverse. Looks like you've got it.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline featherz

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • All Elagabalus provincials to me, please! :)
    • Aeqvitas.com
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2004, 08:14:33 am »
I've asked David Hendin his opinion. He hasn't heard of the reference book mentioned by Explorer (maybe it's under a different name?), but he does note that this reverse is extremely scarce and is published for Soaemias dated 220AD -- Meshorer, Ya'akov, Coins of Caesarea Panias, in Israel Numismatic Journal 8, 1984-85, page 57 #59.  I don't have this reference, but apparently my coin is far nicer than this specimen (and is not for Soaemias, of course).


a

  • Guest
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2004, 09:34:41 am »
This is the picture from book:"The City Coins of Eretz-Israel and the Decapolis in the Roman Period" by Ya'akov Meshorer.

Explorer

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2004, 12:28:17 am »
    In looking up another acquisition of Heather's, I was astonished to see that the same type of THREE GOATS SHARING ONE HEAD, but without the accompanying Pan, also occurs on coins of Bithynium-Claudiopolis in Bithynia, with obverses of Elagabalus, Rec. gen. 57 pl. XLIII.9 = BMC 13 pl. XXVI.5, and Maximus Caesar, SNG Aulock 339!
    Can it be that the type has not yet been correctly recognized on the coins of this mint?  BMC, RG, and SNG Aulock, in any case, all misdescribe it:  the first two speak of "Two goats butting at one another; below, reclining goat or bull", the third of "A bull facing a group of lion attacking bull".
     The occurrence of the same motif at two widely separated mints proves that this is more than a mere local myth, tied to one particular city.  Perhaps it's even a myth that is known from literary sources; but what can it be?
Curtis Clay

a

  • Guest
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2004, 07:02:53 am »
Hi,

I know that, by legend, the Panias was established as settlement by retired arcadian soldiers from Alexander the Great army.  So may be the origin of the myth is Arcadia?

Explorer

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2004, 05:30:47 pm »
In his wonderful book, The Archaeology of Nostalgia (London, 2002), under Natural Features and Landscape, pp. 104–108, Sir John Boardman talks of the many cults of Pan in caves and, especially where there was a source, associated in them with the Nymphs.  In discussing natural rocks which were interpreted as representations, as Niobe Weeping, for example, he mentions that rocks in cave were associated with Pan's goats changed to rocks, and cites Pausanias (Testimonium 153 on p. 215) on a cave near Marathon: "Near Marathon is a cave sacred to Pan and rocks that are called Pan's herd of goats since they resemble goats".  It seems very possible that the likeliest source of triplet goats conjoined at the head is in fact an eroded rock formation by a limestone cave.  Of course, it also could have been touched up a wee bit over the centuries.
Patricia Lawrence

Offline featherz

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • All Elagabalus provincials to me, please! :)
    • Aeqvitas.com
Re:Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2004, 09:17:54 am »
Very interesting, Pat! :)

jfwilson

  • Guest
Re: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 04:18:05 pm »
I am new to this list, so just now saw the coin in question.  I excavated as Caesarea Paneas several years and have a special interest in coins from its mint.  I have an extensive collection that includes some unpublished types, often involving a known reverse with several different members of the imperial family on obverses.  This coin is an important new type and, as David Hendrin says, has the same reverse as INJ 8, Plate 15, no. 59.  Meshorer thought the exergue had only the date, but your coin obviously has more.  For the historical background of the coins minted during Elagabalas' reign see my book, Caesarea Philippi.  Banias: The Lost City of Pan (London: I. B. Taurus, 2004).

Offline featherz

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • All Elagabalus provincials to me, please! :)
    • Aeqvitas.com
Re: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 04:20:34 pm »
Thanks for the update, jfwilson! It's been a while since anything new turned up for my coin. :)

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 07:57:02 pm »
I wouldn't think of coveting a wonder coin like Featherz', but I sure would like to find the one of Bithynium-Claudiopolis with the goats sharing a body or one of the Piping 'Fauns' (which are even in Sear) in his cave of Panias.  B-Claudionpolis and Apoll. Rhyndacum seem to be in my stars, you might say (no, of course, I don't believe that stuff).
I have been meaning to post details of the head of the Louvre statue showing the stumps that once I took for copyist-studio puntelli.  But they almost certainly are the remains of discreet little horns, discreet as his little tail.  So I post the head now.  Pat L.

jfwilson

  • Guest
Re: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2008, 12:00:03 am »
I continue to be intrigued by this coin.  I checked my own collection and find that I have 9 types minted in Banias in the name of Elagabal or a member of his family.  And Meshorer listed a number of additional types.  These all date 218-220, with most coming from the year 220.  I suspect this coin is dated to that year as well.  I think there was some sort of great "Pan Festival" in Banias during that time--probably a fertility rite encouraging a pregancy in one of Elagabal's consorts--with a prodigious number of coin types issued for the occasion.   I note what appears to be a cresent moon on this coin.  It's the only type I know of from Banias with this symbol and I wonder if it might be a reference to the phase of the moon during which the ritual of the goats takes place.  Zvi Ma'oz, who excavated the Pan Sanctuary at Banias, gives his theory about the ritual of the "dancing goats" based on the coins in “Coin and Temple—The Case of Caesarea Philippi-Paneas,” INJ 13 (1994-99), pp. 90-102.

Offline Gert

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1485
    • My Vcoins store
Re: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 04:02:19 pm »
When trying to attribute this 6th century Byzantine seal I remembered this thread about the triple goats image associated with Caesarea Panias. It seems that the image was still iconic in the 6th century.
Regards
Gert

(Unfortunately, the seal must remain anonymous, as the reverse bears a monogram identifying just the dignity of 'Eparchos'. Perhaps the personal name is also included, but there are too many possibilities to be sure.)

Offline featherz

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • All Elagabalus provincials to me, please! :)
    • Aeqvitas.com
Re: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 04:06:26 pm »
Blast from the past! :) Still have nothing more on this coin - I do still have it and need to look more into this one of these days.

Offline Gert

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1485
    • My Vcoins store
Re: Any guesses on this one? Orpheus?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2014, 02:46:04 pm »
More than two years later I found another seal (14mm across) with the three goats image. This one dates the the 4th/5th century AD. The reverse has an inscription that I can't make sense of, unfortunately. It seems to read AIV/.ROC/ATI.
Regards
Gert

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity