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Author Topic: Zeno mold  (Read 1388 times)

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Offline Flav V

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Zeno mold
« on: April 16, 2021, 04:26:22 am »
Hello,

The photo 1 is a genuine coin but i think the 2 is a mold of this coin. The obverse is the same but we see maks in the field.. drip on letter V (created by when the coin was took of mold?). And the reverse is from another die but the style is really simplistic compared to the production of the 3rd issue. I explain here why third issue because its not explianed on many books: 3rd issue with nive quality, portraiture same as the 2 first issues and similar as Basiliscus portraiture. Here the coin 2 show large feet with poor style. CONOB with letter B bady executed... Lettering style of reverse is not correct too.
The particularity of those two coins is the VAG instead of AVG on the obverse. Anotehr strange thing is the price obtained for the coin 2: 240 euros.... thats a low price, even with the seller not mentionning the VAG variant. Probably because the appearance is suspicious.

Here is my reasons to classify coin 2 as modern mold fake produced from obverse of coin 1 with a reverse probably created.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2021, 06:42:31 am »
Need bigger photos.
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Offline Hydatius

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2021, 08:14:49 am »
I don't see anything immediately suspicious, but I'm the first to admit that anything is possible. The mark on the V could be a die crack and that sort of thing is seen all the time. As for the reverse you'd have to go through CoinArchives to check for other examples from the same die, but all of Zeno's coins are pretty crude and there's nothing here that strikes me as out the bounds of 'normality'. And VAC is hardly the worst error I've seen on a fifth-century solidus. But Joe's right, we need big photos. I've included the easy one from CNG.
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Offline Flav V

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2021, 03:39:43 am »
Dear Joe, i dnt know how to have bigger photos without loosing pixels...

Hydatius, i agree for the die crack. But did you saw the forms under some letters on the reverse? Same the lettering is a few troubling. I worked on 1.200 coins of this same type PERP AVG without break, no reverse letters looks like. I dnt what to do with this coin wich is ''unlisted''. Classify it or not...

Offline antesignanvm

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2021, 03:49:46 am »
The have two completely different reverse.
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Offline Flav V

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2021, 08:23:07 am »
antesignanvm, yes and the reverse of coin 2 is with different style.

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2021, 01:55:09 pm »
wear on the face is VASTLY different on coin 2.  If it were cast, and I'm not opining that it is, a different more worn example of the coin with a different reverse die was the pattern - not the coin you show.
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Offline Din X

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2021, 05:55:25 pm »
For research

https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/de

or

www.acsearch.info

(it is for free you can make an account with freemail address to see pictures).

or hompages of auction houses some have archive

or coinarchives (not for free)


Flav V is downloading acsearch preview pictures, they are of course crappy!

But he can use the information from acsearch for example auction of auciton house xy in google search and he will find several hompages with good pictures of the requested coin.
Or free account of acsearch, which does not cost anything!


The other picture

The original picture of auction house (will become huger if you click on it!)

1785x969 Pixels

The original picture of auction house (can be found with acseach)

1000x542 Pixels

The original picture found with sixbid

1000x542 Pixels

Flav V´s picture

400x216 Pixels

I can not see anything suspicious on the good quality pictuers of both coins, to exculde the possibility of transfer die fakes a die study can be reasonable but here I think it will not be necessary because I can not see any typical tranfer die fake problem on these coins. On obverse is a die break at V nothing really special, die breaks and die flaws in dies (especially if they are in a late die state) are normal.


Flav V  "Anotehr strange thing is the price obtained for the coin 2: 240 euros.... thats a low price, even with the seller not mentionning the VAG variant."

The coin was sold 2016 and back then the price for gold was really really much lower and prices for coins were much lower, too.
The coin has wear and is in bad condition and has a really ugly graffiti on obverse and on reverse two scratches which are lowering the value much.
For so bad coins the material value is very important here the gold price.
Nowadays the coin would sell for more (and one of these in good condition for much more .

https://goldprice.org/de/gold-price-history.html


PS: What is really strange is that Flav V knows the price for coin 2 (240 Euro), I could only find the price on hompages (acsearch with premium account, auction house homepage and sixbid sixbid-coin-archive) where really good pictures of the coin were available.
So if there is access to a high quality picture why using acsearch preview picture?
I am not sure if it is possible to find the price for the coin without finding a good picture, too :(

Flav V where do you have the price from for coin 2?





Offline Flav V

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 04:46:49 am »
i have an account but didnt thinked about download larger pictures... in my screen they are in HD on the forum. 2nd i dont quote the sales houses when im not sure its fake.

Can you tell me what is the problem with the photos? On my screen there is no differences betwen your photos and mine. On what device are you?
Its important because if the photos are not good i need to upload twice on my database.... My database will enlarge photos, but dont know if they need to be already larger when i upload.

Offline Din X

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 09:35:43 am »
i have an account but didnt thinked about download larger pictures... in my screen they are in HD on the forum. 2nd i dont quote the sales houses when im not sure its fake.

Can you tell me what is the problem with the photos? On my screen there is no differences betwen your photos and mine. On what device are you?
Its important because if the photos are not good i need to upload twice on my database.... My database will enlarge photos, but dont know if they need to be already larger when i upload.


Your picture has 400x216 Pixels mine has 1785x969 Pixels.
My picture has 4 times as many pixels as yours !!!

It can be possible to condemn fakes even on really bad picture in some cases , fakes from modern hand cut dies which are already published, electrotype or cast fakes if mother or twins are known etc.

But in most cases authentication based on pictures is only possible if we have really high quality, high resolution picture of the coin and its edge, maybe picture of parts of the coin made under maginification too and all important information like weight and die axis etc.
If this is available then authentication based on pictures can be in most cases made as reliable as having the coin in hand.
Dealers and Experts of auction houses have the coins in hand and they are still sometimes offering fakes and get notified by collectors or experts who do not have the coin in hand but who can recognize them based on good pictures as fakes.
So we need someone who is good in authentication of coins and in best case familiar with coins from this emission and he should have either the coin in hand or really good pictures as described above.

What monitor you are using?
400x216 Pixels = Smart phone?

If so I have to disappoint you, with such an equipment a realiable authentication of coins is 100% impossible, in best case it can be possible to detect obvious or know fakes, but you can not say for sure if a coin is genuine or not or  detecting good fakes!


Back to the 2 coins, they look exacty as I would expect that 2 authentic coins from this emission would look like, so it would be possible to make a huge list whith arguments for authenticity where is wirtten that a+b+c-xyz characteristics of the coin are as you can find them on authentic coins. Then a list with problems or arguments speaking against authenticity and there will be 0.
If a coin is exactly as an authentic coin of this emission should look like and there is nothing no problem which speaks against its authenticity than this coin must be considered as authentic.


Flav V please post only good pictures the huger (resolution) the better, with 400x216 Pixels you can in best case ony condemn obvious fakes or well known fakes and even this can be difficult.


And some experts here possibly do not want to search for better pictures themselves and refuse to work with so small pictures (as written abouve they are too small to work with) and will so not respond, so good picture can increase the chance that more experts will participate in your threads.




Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2021, 09:55:16 am »
With the larger photos, I see nothing suspicious. The suspected coin appears to be genuine, struck with quite worn dies with normal wear and flow lines. While it is not possible to authenticate the coin from photographs, those features you find suspicious are not suspicious. Those features could only be replicated on a fake by casting or making dies from a similarly worn coin. Fakes don't need to be very good to sell to the inexperienced. If you were going to make a fake coin, and had the ability to make one that could fool a dealer, wouldn't you select a better specimen to copy? Would you add a graffito to the coin and lower the value further? The value of this coin is not sufficiently higher than the gold value to justify the effort to make a hard to detect fake. This coin is much more likely to be genuine.
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Offline Flav V

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Re: Zeno mold
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2021, 03:25:04 am »
Im uploading larger photos on my database  ;)

About the price i suspected the auction house to sell it at ''gold price'' because of suspicious allure. And maybe the coin was mold on same die but another coin. VAG variant adding value. Example 2.000 euros in the first sale to a private collector, then sold by the auction house wich bogh it as fake. That was my first idea when i started the topic.

 

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