Too many categories?

[Meepzorp]

Nobody said to make Forum like Facebook. 

Hi Jay,

You and others sort of did. I think a "like" button in Forum would be a mistake.

Meepzorp

[Dominic T]

My opinion about Forvm: level of expertise, unbeatable. Reference sections like Fake Coins Report, NFSL, Numiswiki : unbeatable. So the question is: why so many people (even the notorious members)are migrating to Cointalk ? Maybe the forums of discussion changed in the last few years, they became more a social network, a friendly place when you can exchange not only informations but feel part of a community even if you're a beginner. The "like button" is the new thing, members need to feel the appreciation of other participants and a relax atmosphere,a sense of humour are now essentials. Do we like those changes ? Maybe not, but the world is changing quickly, and a new generation of coin collectors are coming to town. We have two choices: adapt or disappear ??
DT

[Virgil H]

This is very interesting discussions and I want to toss in my two obols. I am a long time lurker (since 2012) and over the past year have started to post as I got into collecting in a serious way. I am also older and have a frame of reference going back to Compuserve/AOL and later the Internet from the beginnings when it was only available at universities and then when it went public. I have also worked in web development and am very familiar with social media. I had one of the first Twitter accounts (and I never thought Twitter was a useful tool). I say this because, while I am in the boomer category and therefore automatically assumed to be an idiot in regard to computers and the Internet, I am not and have always been an early adopter.

Te biggest thing I dislike about social media is that it is ephemeral. It is temporary, it is for the NOW and that is it. It also encourages superficiality and brevity in all things. You know what I am talking about if you ever tried to find an old post you made on Facebook. Yes, there is a Search function. But, it is very difficult to find anything from the past on all the social media platforms. They are all temporary.

After being "online" since the early 80s, I still think that a forum format cannot be beat for serious sharing of information. Nothing has come along that is better. I occasionally look at Cointalk, but it suffers from the same issues as Facebook. I only look if it comes up in a search for something specific. My impression is also that it is much more superficial than FAC. And I have seen some uninformed comments there and some bad advice. I am no expert, but I don't use it. I will say when I see a forum member who has posted there, I think that I wish they had done so on FAC. The academic nature of FAC cannot be beat.

I do not want to see a reduction in topics, in fact, I might add more if anything. There may be a couple of topics that are somewhat redundant. But, for the most part, many are too general. I am indifferent to the Like button. That is that instant gratification thing that I hate about the Internet (here is my age showing). I see where it could be useful to "thank" someone for a post without doing a comment. But, then, I would feel obligated to like them all. So, I would vote no on the Like button. We can see how many times a post has been read if you need validation.

I find the Forum easy to keep up with. I just open it almost everyday and look for the topics that have Latest Reply as "Today" or "Yesterday." I know then there is at least one new post or comment to look at if I want to. All other topics I don't have to go any further. I agree that I wish there was more activity on the Forum. But, like someone said, this is not unique to just this forum. The Internet has changed so much over the years and much of that is downhill. I would take the 1999 Internet over today's, but I can't do anything about that. This is a place I visit almost everyday. And there are a couple of other special interest forums I also visit because the Forum format still cannot be beat. You won't find me on any other platform except Facebook.

My two obols and thanks to all who make this forum my favorite place on the Internet.

Virgil

[Mat]

This is very interesting discussions and I want to toss in my two obols. I am a long time lurker (since 2012) and over the past year have started to post as I got into collecting in a serious way. I am also older and have a frame of reference going back to Compuserve/AOL and later the Internet from the beginnings when it was only available at universities and then when it went public. I have also worked in web development and am very familiar with social media. I had one of the first Twitter accounts (and I never thought Twitter was a useful tool). I say this because, while I am in the boomer category and therefore automatically assumed to be an idiot in regard to computers and the Internet, I am not and have always been an early adopter.

I would take the 1999 Internet over today's, but I can't do anything about that. This is a place I visit almost everyday. And there are a couple of other special interest forums I also visit because the Forum format still cannot be beat. You won't find me on any other platform except Facebook.


Virgil

I got my first internet using Compuserve & newsgroups.  I used IRC on occasion too.

[Jay GT4]

Great insight Virgil.

[iameatingjam]

My opinion about Forvm: level of expertise, unbeatable. Reference sections like Fake Coins Report, NFSL, Numiswiki : unbeatable. So the question is: why so many people (even the notorious members)are migrating to Cointalk ? Maybe the forums of discussion changed in the last few years, they became more a social network, a friendly place when you can exchange not only informations but feel part of a community even if you're a beginner. The "like button" is the new thing, members need to feel the appreciation of other participants and a relax atmosphere,a sense of humour are now essentials. Do we like those changes ? Maybe not, but the world is changing quickly, and a new generation of coin collectors are coming to town. We have two choices: adapt or disappear ??
DT

Very good point. Thats what I have been thinking!

This is very interesting discussions and I want to toss in my two obols. I am a long time lurker (since 2012) and over the past year have started to post as I got into collecting in a serious way. I am also older and have a frame of reference going back to Compuserve/AOL and later the Internet from the beginnings when it was only available at universities and then when it went public. I have also worked in web development and am very familiar with social media. I had one of the first Twitter accounts (and I never thought Twitter was a useful tool). I say this because, while I am in the boomer category and therefore automatically assumed to be an idiot in regard to computers and the Internet, I am not and have always been an early adopter.

Te biggest thing I dislike about social media is that it is ephemeral. It is temporary, it is for the NOW and that is it. It also encourages superficiality and brevity in all things. You know what I am talking about if you ever tried to find an old post you made on Facebook. Yes, there is a Search function. But, it is very difficult to find anything from the past on all the social media platforms. They are all temporary.

After being "online" since the early 80s, I still think that a forum format cannot be beat for serious sharing of information. Nothing has come along that is better. I occasionally look at Cointalk, but it suffers from the same issues as Facebook. I only look if it comes up in a search for something specific. My impression is also that it is much more superficial than FAC. And I have seen some uninformed comments there and some bad advice. I am no expert, but I don't use it. I will say when I see a forum member who has posted there, I think that I wish they had done so on FAC. The academic nature of FAC cannot be beat.

I do not want to see a reduction in topics, in fact, I might add more if anything. There may be a couple of topics that are somewhat redundant. But, for the most part, many are too general. I am indifferent to the Like button. That is that instant gratification thing that I hate about the Internet (here is my age showing). I see where it could be useful to "thank" someone for a post without doing a comment. But, then, I would feel obligated to like them all. So, I would vote no on the Like button. We can see how many times a post has been read if you need validation.

I find the Forum easy to keep up with. I just open it almost everyday and look for the topics that have Latest Reply as "Today" or "Yesterday." I know then there is at least one new post or comment to look at if I want to. All other topics I don't have to go any further. I agree that I wish there was more activity on the Forum. But, like someone said, this is not unique to just this forum. The Internet has changed so much over the years and much of that is downhill. I would take the 1999 Internet over today's, but I can't do anything about that. This is a place I visit almost everyday. And there are a couple of other special interest forums I also visit because the Forum format still cannot be beat. You won't find me on any other platform except Facebook.

My two obols and thanks to all who make this forum my favorite place on the Internet.

Virgil

Also a good point. I agree that the internet of the 90s and 00s was more interesting. Before it was corporatized you had so many smaller entities trying all kinds of new things with unique content. The reality is that internet has changed, big corporations have been established and take most of peoples time, they spend millions on what is the most efficient ways to keep people engaged. People like me and probably most of you remember the days of the old BB systems and can appreciate them. But when the next generation starts getting into coins, they are not going to be familiar with this system, they are going to be more used to streamlines experiences, and I bet they will go elsewhere unless there is some adaption. It was already shown in this thread that new user registrations have fallen off a cliff and I wonder if that is a factor.

Nobody said to make Forum like Facebook.  

Hi Jay,

You and others sort of did. I think a "like" button in Forum would be a mistake.

Meepzorp

What? Maybe re-read those posts as I certainly did not, and would not suggest emulating facebook. I just explained the reason why I brought facebook up and it wasn't about competition with them. About the like button, I never said anything about that, but even if I did, every website has a like button these days, video sites, news sites, other forum sites. That is a ubiquitous feature. If every site that has like buttons is a facebook copy-cat, then I guess thats what the whole internet is. I could go either way on the like button, it does allow people to show their support for a statement without having to add redundant posts. And to some people that will be incentive to write helpful posts. I see some people are hesitant about that creating a kind of show and tell type forum and I see that as a fair point. If thats not the kind of environment joe wants he could always make that part of the rules. I mean there are plenty of examples of sites with a like feature that don't turn into that, looking at just cointalk is a pretty small sample size.

Please by all means disagree with me, I am just offering my perspective. Just to be clear, emulating facebook is a bad idea and I am not suggesting that, I don't think Jay GT4 or anyone else is either. So continuing to attack that idea is a bit of strawman.

[SC]

I would not oppose a more chatty part to the Forum as long as the academic part stayed, though I wouldn't use it much (at least until retirement....).

My dream Forum would have all the "academic" postings not filed by thread but actually filed as wiki entries.  Though I doubt that would be everyone's dream Forum.

There would need to be some sort of notification system so we could know when a new entry was done or one we "subscribe" to was modified.  In a way it would be like "infinite" threads for the expert stuff.  Be perhaps a bit more burden on the moderators, but on the other hand it would also represent the continued expansion of the greatest numismatic knowledge site there could be.

The things like chat, news, ID, cleaning tips, etc would still be in the discussion section.  If that was the case, such a discussion section could possibly have fewer threads.  In the way that we are ok with one "endless" ID thread.

Another radical idea (by which I also mean quite likely unfeasible, but hey I am following the real rules of brainstorming - toss out all ideas first, then see if they are even useful later) would be to try to work closely with another forum like cointalk and completely give up the chat, while attempting to monopolize on things like ID, fakes, research, wiki, etc.

Anyway, end brainstorming.  Time for bed.

SC

PS We don't even know what Joe wants.

[Virgil H]

My dream Forum would have all the "academic" postings not filed by thread but actually filed as wiki entries.  Though I doubt that would be everyone's dream Forum.

There would need to be some sort of notification system so we could know when a new entry was done or one we "subscribe" to was modified.  In a way it would be like "infinite" threads for the expert stuff.  Be perhaps a bit more burden on the moderators, but on the other hand it would also represent the continued expansion of the greatest numismatic knowledge site there could be.

The things like chat, news, ID, cleaning tips, etc would still be in the discussion section.  If that was the case, such a discussion section could possibly have fewer threads.  In the way that we are ok with one "endless" ID thread.

First thing, that endless ID thread is the worst thread on the Forum because it is too long. I am not OK with it LOL. Maybe if I had started reading it when it was first created it would be OK. I wouldn't want to see anything like that. There are a few threads that are way too long. I would like to see a way for long threads to be ended and restarted or something. On the Wiki, I love it and find it helpful, but it is unwieldy and very easy to miss things/not find what you are looking for. I don't have a solution, most wikis are like that.

Virgil

[Joe Sermarini]

PS We don't even know what Joe wants.

I want the boards and website to be useful and fun. I also want to sell coins so I can pay for it and my bills.

[Virgil H]

I want to clarify one thing I said. I think I may have misunderstood what the "ID thread" was. I love the Coin Identification topic because there are multiple separate entries as posts, one coin per post. That works and is perfect. The "ID thread" I was thinking about when I said I didn't like it is one where members post a picture of themselves or introduce themselves. That one is way to long to read and thus loses its appeal for me. I have looked at it, but it would literally take days to looks at all the posts under this one thread. My point is that Topics have multiple posts/threads under their heading. What is an issue to me is one post with multiple pages of comments. Although, this works fine with the Gallery posts as it gets longer as people post more coins to their gallery. I hope this makes sense.

Virgil

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

iameatingjam wrote: "What? Maybe re-read those posts as I certainly did not, and would not suggest emulating facebook. I just explained the reason why I brought facebook up and it wasn't about competition with them. About the like button, I never said anything about that, but even if I did, every website has a like button these days, video sites, news sites, other forum sites. That is a ubiquitous feature. If every site that has like buttons is a facebook copy-cat, then I guess thats what the whole internet is. I could go either way on the like button, it does allow people to show their support for a statement without having to add redundant posts. And to some people that will be incentive to write helpful posts. I see some people are hesitant about that creating a kind of show and tell type forum and I see that as a fair point. If thats not the kind of environment joe wants he could always make that part of the rules. I mean there are plenty of examples of sites with a like feature that don't turn into that, looking at just cointalk is a pretty small sample size.

Please by all means disagree with me, I am just offering my perspective. Just to be clear, emulating facebook is a bad idea and I am not suggesting that, I don't think Jay GT4 or anyone else is either. So continuing to attack that idea is a bit of strawman."


I read this post yesterday, but I was tired and went to bed. I would like to comment on it today. I think it was edited. Someone (I think it was iameatingjam in this post) used the term "misrepresented". I didn't misrepresent anyone. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. Before I wrote my first post in this thread, some posters brought up Facebook. Other posters (including Lech and Alex) became so alarmed by these posts regarding Facebook that they literally commented to the effect that they didn't want to see Forum become like Facebook. Again, this was before I posted here. I was simply reinforcing that point of view. It may have all been a big misunderstanding. But it just shows how much everyone cares about Forum and how passionate they are about it, which is a good sign.

Regarding the "like" button, I thought that was something exclusive to Facebook. I had no idea that other websites and message boards used it. That is lack of information on my part, and simply a sign of my lack of use of social media. Aside from Forum, the only other message board that I post on regularly is a Mustang GT board. Generally speaking, I despise social media, or at least what it has devolved and degenerated into, which is not what it was created for in the early days of the internet (a means of communication between scientists and scholars). Social media has become so polluted and corrupted. It has become so "cookie-cutter" (a "mass production scheme", to borrow a quote from a Rush song), just like 95% of the radio stations in America.

Meepzorp

[Curtisimo]

I think FORVM is great and I would love to post more here but the thing that has held me back mostly is the user interface. It is simply easier and more intuitive to post on some of the other sites mentioned. Most of the time I am browsing the various forums from my cell phone or tablet and CoinTalk is just so much easier to navigate, read and post to when using a mobile device. Until recently FORVM simply did not format to a mobile device in a remotely readable format.

It seems like recently there has been some updates that have made things better in this regard but there is still a huge gap between the ease of use of a site like CoinTalk and FORVM.  Even on the desktop site I think FORVM could be updated with a more intuitive and streamlined user interface.  Also, like it or not the “like” button does drive engagement.

This is not a negative commentary on FORVM (which I hold in very high regard) just my own observation and reasons for lurking here more than I post.

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

In my opinion, the problem with Forum is not "too many categories". However, I think Forum suffers from 3 problems:

1) At a few points in the past (but not currently right now), Forum has gone through periods where a level of nastiness permeated the entire message board. It was pervasive. Joe's #1 rule is "Be nice". Some Forum members don't understand this concept. It can be very off-putting to new members. And it can drive away long-term members. For example, there was the time period I referred to in my earlier post here in this thread (where I seriously considered permanently leaving Forum). There was also the time period where a former administrator of Forum became so unhinged and got so carried away with his extremist views that he literally drove away long-term members who were providing good content. Fortunately, Joe revoked his admin privileges, and he is no longer posting here in Forum. Thankfully, Joe has gotten both situations under control. But it can flare up again in the future. I don't know why, but Forum seems to be highly susceptible to these flare-ups of nastiness. And there is no apparent psychological reason for it.

2) As I mentioned in my earlier posts here in this thread, I like the academic and intellectual nature of Forum. However, that being stated, it doesn't mean that Forum can't have a more "show and tell" atmosphere. Why can't those 2 concepts peacefully coexist? Otlichnik alluded to this in his post above, and I agree. By the way, this concept was at the root of the attacks and defamation against me during the time period I mentioned above. I was trying to create more of a "show and tell" atmosphere in Forum, and I was met with tremendous resistance, as well as numerous personal attacks and defamation by certain long-term Forum members who are almost incomprehensibly resistant to change for the better of the board. These individuals go ballistic when you attempt to go outside of their inflexible life structure and rigid life philosophy. Long-term Forum members know who I am referring to. These individuals need to "lighten up" and "chill out". Being a life-long Howard Stern fan (since 1984), maybe these individuals need to start listening to the "Howard Stern Show" every day (as I do).

I am not a member of CoinTalk, but I have heard that it has more of a "show and tell" atmosphere.

3) Generally speaking, I think Forum is too rigid and overly-policed. I think it should be loosened up a bit. I am not stating that we should just let everything under the Sun fly, bit it is too restrictive and suffocating, especially to a new member and/or someone new to the hobby. It needs to be more "fun" (as Joe stated above), particularly for new members.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

Regarding combining/merging categories, here are my thoughts:

Joe raised an excellent point when he stated that certain moderators have specific skills. However, (and I thought about this overnight), that does not preclude the merging of topics. After thinking about it overnight, perhaps all of the antiquities sections should be merged into one section. The individual moderators can comment on the threads that apply to their specific skills.

Also, perhaps the Coin of the Day section can be merged with the Ancient Coin Forum section.

What do other Forum members think?

Meepzorp

[Stkp]

I don't believe that the number of categories is a problem. When I review the new posts, I do so based on the title of the post and rarely even bother to note the category under which it is posted. I suspect that most people do likewise. Stkp

[Tracy Aiello]

Like Stkp, I also look at the title of the post first and foremost, and rarely note the category. I access the board numerous times per day by clicking on the New Posts Since Last Visit link and that is how I keep abreast of the discussions. If I am looking for something specific, then I use the Search function.

Tracy

[Virgil H]

I have seen this on most forums in all areas that I pursue and that ranges from coins (here) to tube electronics and classic audio. Here is my question. Where are people getting the information they used to get from these forums? I have never found such information elsewhere. Maybe it is just fewer people are interested in these topics today. I am pretty sure the information is not available anywhere else. And, there are so many paywalls these days compared to 20 years ago, every time I have paid for content it has been a ripoff and total money grab. Note that if Forum here had a donate option, I would contribute something simply because I get so much out of it. The main classic audio gear site I use has that option. I know that isn't the issue, but maybe people are just not doing the same things as they used to. I know that to be a young person in today's world is horrible finance wise compared to when I was younger. They can't even afford housing, let alone a hobby. Most specialized forums involve people with disposable income for a hobby. For many, that no longer as common as when some of us were young.

Virgil

My Ferrari website that had thousands of users a day is down to a few posts.

Hi Jay,

That is true for many message boards. A Mustang GT message board that I am a member of has suffered the same fate in the past few years, but it is much worse than just a few posts a day. It is down to a few posts a month!

Meepzorp

[Heliodromus]

I think FORVM is great and I would love to post more here but the thing that has held me back mostly is the user interface. It is simply easier and more intuitive to post on some of the other sites mentioned. Most of the time I am browsing the various forums from my cell phone or tablet and CoinTalk is just so much easier to navigate, read and post to when using a mobile device. Until recently FORVM simply did not format to a mobile device in a remotely readable format.

That's an interesting point. I wonder how many FORVM visitors are using phones vs larger screen devices ?

I'd have to guess that the regular posters are using laptops or desktops - phones are good for tweeting, but not for writing lengthy stuff !

I've never even bothered to see what FORVM looks like on my phone.

Ben

[Joe Sermarini]

I am trying to get the board updated.  The updated version should work better on phones and undoubtedly will include a like button.

As for being overly policed - I do very little moderation.

[Carausius]

Two upgrades worth considering, in my opinion:

1.  Improved functionality/control for inserting images in posts.  To my knowledge, you cannot direct where uploaded images appear within a Forum post - they are automatically appended to the end of the message.  This makes it difficult to draft a long post referring to multiple images, and equally difficult to comprehend such posts.

2.  Ability to upload video or other multi-media to posts.

[Jay GT4]

I agree with number 1 completely

[Curtisimo]

That's an interesting point. I wonder how many FORVM visitors are using phones vs larger screen devices ?

I'd have to guess that the regular posters are using laptops or desktops - phones are good for tweeting, but not for writing lengthy stuff !

I think you would be surprised at how useful mobile devices can be as a research and write up tool. I recently used the image translate functionality in google translate on my mobile device to translate several articles by Nolle and Wenninger from German to English. The functionality I used is not available on the desktop version. I then had the translation saved in my notes app and was able to do some writing based on what I read while sitting on a plane.  The final write up I posted on the fractional coins of Themistokles was partially written on my cell phone while traveling.

I think making the site more user friendly to mobile users could result in some really good content from folks who are used to utilizing mobile devices in this way. That’s why I am glad to read Joe’s above response about future updates with this in mind.

Two upgrades worth considering, in my opinion:

1.  Improved functionality/control for inserting images in posts.  To my knowledge, you cannot direct where uploaded images appear within a Forum post - they are automatically appended to the end of the message.  This makes it difficult to draft a long post referring to multiple images, and equally difficult to comprehend such posts.

I think this is a really great suggestion.

[Heliodromus]

1.  Improved functionality/control for inserting images in posts.  To my knowledge, you cannot direct where uploaded images appear within a Forum post - they are automatically appended to the end of the message.  This makes it difficult to draft a long post referring to multiple images, and equally difficult to comprehend such posts.

It's certainly a nice and useful feature, although I doubt it'd be one that would increase number of users or switch lurkers into posters.

Victor's lateromanbronzecoinforum.com uses the same SMF forum software as FORVM, although a newer 2.x vs 1.x version, and he recently installed an add-on that gives that capability to insert images whereever you like not just append them at the end.

Ben

[Joe Sermarini]

We are trying to upgrade to 2.x. It is apparently not easy, but I am sure we will get it done eventually.

[Carausius]

It's certainly a nice and useful feature, although I doubt it'd be one that would increase number of users or switch lurkers into posters.

Perhaps not, but I think it would benefit the enjoyability and readability of the Forum as a whole.  Also, it might encourage some members to post their lengthy/multi-image write-ups on Forum rather than that certain 'other coin forum' that already has this functionality.