Question about belt mount

[Kilian O]

Hello all,

These are some late 2nd-3rd century openwork belt mounts with pelta design. I wonder how these would have been placed on the belt itself, horizontal or vertical?

I think I saw a photo before where they were placed horizontal but I think maybe vertical as you can see on one that there is something to hang a pedant on.  Another thing is what purpose has the most right mount? The same as all the others and different variety or was it placed somewhere else?

Thanks for reading and hopefully some insight 

[Jay GT4]

These would have been placed horizontally on a strip of leather.  There is some debate as to whether they went all the way around or not.  I'm more familiar with 1st century belts but we know that they were a prized possessions and were highly decorated.  It was a form of punishment to take away a soldiers belt and have his tunic hang low.  The 2 on the right may be strap ends rather than belt plates.

[Kilian O]

These would have been placed horizontally on a strip of leather.  There is some debate as to whether they went all the way around or not.  I'm more familiar with 1st century belts but we know that they were a prized possessions and were highly decorated.  It was a form of punishment to take away a soldiers belt and have his tunic hang low.  The 2 on the right may be strap ends rather than belt plates.

Thanks for the insight friend I appreciate it 

[SC]

I agree that they are all horizontal belt plates for thin 2nd century belts.

The loop at the end of the second-from-the-right plate is odd as it looks like a suspension loop.  Examine it carefully to make sure it is not a fake or mash-up item.  If genuine it must just be a weird design.  I don't really understand these asymmetrical styles but they were common.....

SC
 

[Kilian O]

Here are some extra photo's. I'm trying my luck in other groups cause maybe somebody has seen it before. It does look weird as they were applied horizontal so the loop wouldn't have any use. I did try to examine them and they seem to have some sort of patina and porous surface.

They look all in great shape tho and out of them all the one with the loop seems to be the most suspicious. But i'm not sure if these were grave finds or metal detecting finds. I just hope they are genuine or atleast some

[Kilian O]

extra photo

[SC]

It does raise some concerns. 

I have seen Serbian fakes made by casting a new item using old bits and pieces as a model.  I also have a couple of items that consist of unrelated old bits and pieces stuck together by a 'forger".

That and the fact that the patina is an easily fake-able type - i.e. no real adhesions or long-term corrosion products - is concerning.

SC

[Kilian O]

It does raise some concerns. 

I have seen Serbian fakes made by casting a new item using old bits and pieces as a model.  I also have a couple of items that consist of unrelated old bits and pieces stuck together by a 'forger".

That and the fact that the patina is an easily fake-able type - i.e. no real adhesions or long-term corrosion products - is concerning.

SC

Got some new info from a local guy. He told me it's a belt tongue with suspension loop dating late 2nd-3rd century. It's a 'normal' model that is often found in Swiss and Germany (Augusta Raurica). Asked for a reference (still waiting) ,but seems we both learned about this type then .  It's a style that was used but not as much, so a bit "rare" but still often enough not to be out of the ordinary. Apparently in the 4th century you see those loops more.

This is the lot it came originally in, you can also see another variation. I don't see anything that rubs me off wrong but then again i'm no expert . Maybe these would have been mounted vertically to put a hanger on? I already find it odd they had assymetrical designs, guess those romans had many variations. Hard to find info on these type of plates.

[SC]

The rest of the stuff looks good.  Dates from 2nd to 4th century.

Just the ends of those plates that are odd, most documented ones have matching ends, though some are asymmetrical.  Here all are heavily asymmetrical.

SC

[Kilian O]

Yes it is odd but perhaps it was the choice of the soldier or some provincial adaptation? I checked them up close and I see the signs I expect of items that have been burried.  If all of the other items look good I got no reason to believe these are fakes. Think it's also an issue that we don't have a place where all of these finds are catalogued together. Sadly it's hard to find a reference (even of regular ones) and good information on them.

Some info I got:
The asymmetry 'betrays' already a Germanic (and / or Ostrogothic) style influence. I published an article about these influences in a professional magazine, but in Italian.(He's 35 year+ collector and been on 18 archeological digs for what it's worth ) I suspect that these are relatively rare, partly due to the design. They are also cast in high quality bronze. Some in a mold, some seem to have been made using the lost wax method. Clearly, these kinds of pieces weren't for the average soldier, more for higher rankings.In the past, people dared to abandon symmetry. Everything had a different symbolism and people viewed things very differently.

That's the information i've been able to gather for now but i'll keep digging. Should be able to get some other examples soon