Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Odd Seizure  (Read 1217 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Odd Seizure
« on: February 20, 2021, 03:56:35 pm »
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/hsi-pacific-northwest-investigation-cbp-seizure-result-transfer-51-ancient-coins

This is an odd case.  The article doesn't describe what the basis of the search was, nor what basis ICE has in seizing material that the "country of origin" doesn't seem interested in.  I understand the U.S doesn't have an MoU with Afghanistan.  In effect, ICE has "repatriated" coins to a U.S. museum.

Offline Justin W

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
  • Justin W
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2021, 04:34:50 pm »
This makes very little sense, this almost seems like robbery. What type of provenance did they want, this seems like a normal collectors collection. Also, I don’t understand how it was transferred to the uni. of Washington if their is no provenance. This is a bit unnerving that they can just take ones coin and give it to a university.


Best Regards,

Justin

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2021, 04:40:13 pm »
Please feel free to also join the discussion on twitter

https://twitter.com/andrewahala/status/1363199717006598147?s=19

https://twitter.com/andrewahala/status/1363215237202272256?s=19

It's more political than ancient coin specific so might be best discussed off Forum Ancient Coins

Offline Justin W

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
  • Justin W
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2021, 05:00:34 pm »
Thank you for the link Andrew. I don’t have an account but I will see if there is any more interesting information.

Best Regards,
Justin

Offline Ron C2

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Qvod perierat adhvc exstat nvmmorvm
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2021, 08:11:11 pm »
So let me get this straight - a coin collector was travelling to Canada and for an unstated reason was denied entry to Canada and turned around back to the USA.  On the way back to the US Border Services crossing point, the USBS seized his coin collection and accused him of importing stolen coins because he didn't have provenance on his person. 

This is pretty alarming.  How many of us kept detailed receipts for every ancient coin purchase on an online auction site, at a coin show, or anywhere else.  If you have those records, would you have them on you when the authorities come calling? 

Very alarming.
My Ancient Coin Gallery: Click here

R. Cormier, Ottawa

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2021, 08:34:11 pm »
I keep very detailed records of every purchase, and I'm pretty serious about researching the earlier provenances of my coins.  While I wouldn't have all the documentation with me, my coin tags all recite my coins' provenances and I could provide any documentation from home.  This is something all ancient coin collectors should do.

Offline Nemonater

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1149
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2021, 09:39:21 pm »
I think the seizure makes sense based on the clear evidence. “HSI consulted with subject matter experts, who determined the coins were authentic and showed signs of Bronze Disease, which is an indication the coins were taken from the ground illegally.”

We all know proper documentation prevents bronze disease! Save your receipts!

Offline Justin W

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
  • Justin W
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2021, 10:45:46 pm »
Nemonater thank you for pointing that out, I did not notice that. After reading that this article seems like a joke, who exactly are they consulting with??? I would legitimately love to know which expert said such a thing.

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5127
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2021, 11:53:09 pm »
Hi folks,

This is very strange, but also very troubling and alarming. You often hear about these sorts of things happening in other countries (Italy, etc.), but you would never expect it here in the USA.

Many excellent points were raised in the article and on Twitter:

the absurdity of bronze disease being proof of illegal excavation
lack of MOU
low end (low value) coins

I think there is a piece missing to this puzzle. Why was the man denied entry into Canada in the first place? Does he have a history of smuggling? Maybe he was on some sort of "watch list".

Meepzorp

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2021, 12:12:27 am »
Link is not working for me.  Has it been shut down?

Offline Ron C2

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Qvod perierat adhvc exstat nvmmorvm
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2021, 09:25:31 am »
Link is not working for me.  Has it been shut down?

I just clicked on it and it worked for me...?
My Ancient Coin Gallery: Click here

R. Cormier, Ottawa

Offline Justin W

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
  • Justin W
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2021, 11:52:10 am »
Meepzorp, I can’t say for certain, but I think they are suggesting that he was just a private collector. I think this ignorant excerpt from the article points to that “Society as a whole is victimized when we lose these pieces of history to a private collector’s coffee table.” Also why are they making it seem like these coins are extremely unique and valuable types, it’s clear the person who is giving them coin information knows nothing about the actual coins. The most interesting part of the article is that no one from the Afghanistan government requested the coins to be returned. So shouldn’t the collector be given back the coins? What claim to the coins does ice have if the Afghanistan government doesn’t want it?

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2021, 01:50:17 pm »
Quote
I think there is a piece missing to this puzzle. Why was the man denied entry into Canada in the first place? Does he have a history of smuggling? Maybe he was on some sort of "watch list".


I wondered the same, Meep.  Perhaps he was denied access to Canada because he was carrying the coins, and then the Canadian border agents tipped-off the US border agents?  It's all unclear what the basis was for searching this man, since he never actually left the U.S.!  It may be that the U.S. Customs don't want to advertise what cause they had to search him, as it might give bad guys a road map to avoiding detection.

Offline Justin W

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
  • Justin W
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2021, 02:50:49 pm »
Carausius The person could have been refused for something as simple as a passport issue. Also, the (US) border patrol does random searches of cars at least from my experience crossing the border. Nowhere in the article does it say the man committed a crime other then not having provenance for his coins. I assume the reason they don’t say why he was refused is because they can’t go into detail about a situation where no crime was committed.

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2021, 03:36:05 pm »
Agree.  Many scenarios are possible and very little background information is given, so we are left guessing...

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2021, 04:34:29 pm »
Quote from Carausius: "Perhaps he was denied access to Canada because he was carrying the coins, and then the Canadian border agents tipped-off the US border agents?  It's all unclear what the basis was for searching this man, since he never actually left the U.S.! "

The article does not say he was refused entry into Canada because of the coins.
I've had friends refused entry to Canada at the Blaine border crossing, and when they were turned around to go back into the US, they had to go through the US Customs -- just a few hundred feet away. They ended up spending 6 hours there while everything they had, and their vehicle, was thoroughly searched.  Seems that is what happens when you are refused entry to Canada at this crossing.

Offline PMah

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Qui risus classe devicta multas ipsi lacrimas...
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2021, 05:30:22 pm »
The forfeiture stipulation likely does not have anything more detailed and it is not available on PACER, the federal court filing system (wouldn't expect it to be).  A lesson, at least, in not crossing international borders with something that other people might find of interest,  and, if you must, bring proof of ownership.  There are many shiny Rolexes that ended up costing double-duty because someone couldn't wait to wear it.    
    I ask even the flea market dealers for at least a business card with date and "# coins", and, like Michael, I keep a record. 
      There is a world of difference in interactions with government agencies when one has documentation tending to prove an asserted fact, and when one does not. 
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2021, 05:43:05 pm »
Quote
The article does not say he was refused entry into Canada because of the coins.
I've had friends refused entry to Canada at the Blaine border crossing, and when they were turned around to go back into the US, they had to go through the US Customs -- just a few hundred feet away. They ended up spending 6 hours there while everything they had, and their vehicle, was thoroughly searched.  Seems that is what happens when you are refused entry to Canada at this crossing.

To be clear, I was just throwing-out potential scenarios because the article gave no information about why he was turned-away from Canada or whether there was probable cause for the search.  Your friends' experience seems likely what happened here - either they search everyone or randomly search anyone - in which case the reason for his refusal by Canada really doesn't matter.  

Offline Justin W

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
  • Justin W
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2021, 06:49:51 pm »
I’m having a hard time imagining who thought it would be a good idea to post this article. First, of all these coins aren’t even valuable enough to warrant a whole article. Second, whoever said that first quote takes a very bold stance on all private collectors, which makes me wonder is that ice’s stance on ancient coins as well? The biggest problem is their reasoning, anybody familiar with ancient coins could debunk the things this “expert” is saying. So I don’t think we will ever know the exact circumstances of how the coins were taken, but why make an article that publicly shows their lack of knowledge of provenance and ancient coins?

Sorry for posting so much but this situation is very interesting.

Offline PMah

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Qui risus classe devicta multas ipsi lacrimas...
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2021, 07:23:07 pm »
         Justin, you have due reason to be confused.  It stems from the nature of the document -- it is a news release from ICE, not a scholarly article, amateur magazine write-up, nor even a local reporter's piece.  A news release is a statement by the issuer, here a federal government agency, setting out a version of events that they wish the public to take note of.  Such things are not bound to any particular information standard, other than generally avoiding un-truth to the extent the lack of truth of a proposition is actually known to the issuing agency.   Nor is it a policy statement in itself.  The release would be more complete had ICE attached a set of the papers upon which it is based, but I suspect that the narrative is not as linear or neat as either the agency or the individual would prefer and the papers either make that apparent or are written to avoid committing either side to a particular version of facts.  Likely, they just say "X" was seized on "Y" date pursuant to "Z" authority, and Mr. Q does not contest it.
      News releases (including ones announcing settlements) rarely detail the complete versions of facts and law.
    You can perhaps best understand this one as an advertisement with a mild warning:  "This is what we do from time to time, and, if you are thinking about doing something similar to this guy, think again."   Much like a local police department announces it does DWI patrols on New Year's Day.
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Odd Seizure
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2021, 11:09:39 pm »
A lesson, at least, in not crossing international borders with something that other people might find of interest, and, if you must, bring proof of ownership.

The above statement is probably the most important piece of information we can take away from this discussion.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity