Did Italy's Export Restrictions Recently Get More Restrictive?

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

Did Italy's export restrictions recently get more restrictive?

In September 2020, a coin dealer in Italy held an auction. One of the coins in that auction was a Campania AE MFB coin. I bid on it and won it. I paid the dealer at that time (4 months ago). It typically takes this dealer 3-6 months to obtain an export license from the Italian government, so I waited as I usually do.

Today (4 months later), I received an email from that dealer stating that it is "impossible" (his exact word) to obtain an export license from the Italian government for that coin, and he will refund my money. In 23 years of collecting ancient coins and importing ancient coins form Italy, this is the first time this has ever happened to me.

About 1-2 months ago, I had a similar problem with a different coin dealer in Italy. He held an auction. In that auction, I won a Medieval Genoese coin. The Italian government now requires an export license for Medieval coins, in addition to ancient coins. I have been told this recently by 2 different coin dealers in Italy. At that time, the dealer I purchased the Medieval Genoese coin from sent me an email stating that it was "impossible" (his exact word) to obtain an export license from the Italian government - not just for this coin, but for ANY coin. He shipped the coin to me without an export license. Of course, he took a risk.

Not only has Italy increased the scope of the export restrictions (it now includes Medieval coins in addition to ancient coins), but it seems that it is now extremely difficult, if not completely physically impossible, to obtain an export license from the Italian government.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Meepzorp

[David Atherton]

All this doesn't surprise me. After all, isn't this the same country where it is illegal to own ancient coins privately?

[Jay GT4]

I believe it is probably impossible because most government services are shut down.  Export licenses are not exactly a priority in Italy these days.  I have important documents I've been waiting on for a year now and I don't expect to get them any time soon.

[Meepzorp]

Isn't this the same country where it is illegal to own ancient coins privately?

Hi DA,

That is partially true.

If an Italian citizen can prove that a coin WASN'T found buried in the ground, then he can legally own an ancient coin in Italy. The burden of proof is on the owner to prove that is WASN'T found buried in the ground. The Italian government doesn't have to prove that it WAS found buried in the ground. Of course, this requires a collector in Italy to maintain a list of pedigrees for EVERY ancient coin in his collection. That is the only way to ensure that the Italian government won't seize it.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

I believe it is probably impossible because most government services are shut down.  Export licenses are not exactly a priority in Italy these days.

Hi Jay,

Thanks for the input.

I hope that is the only problem, and that it is not something more serious or chronic. However, if that is the case, then why didn't the dealer just tell me that? I am in no hurry. I can wait several months or even a year or more for this coin. I haven't responded to the dealer's email yet. Maybe I should ask him if that is the case.

It is a Campania, Cales AE MFB coin. After consulting with Nick Molinari 4 months ago, we determined that it has extremely rare (and probably unpublished/unlisted) symbols on it. It is not listed Nick's MSP AE MFB reference book. Nick and I were both very interested in it.

Meepzorp

[Aleph]

The last Italian based auction in which I won 2 lots was in Nov 2019.  I received the first coin in July 2020 and the second in Nov.  The auction house was incredibly diligent and apologetic, but without question the process has become quite challenging.

[Ron C2]

Good grief.  Let's hope that attitude towards antiquities doesn't spread to more countries.  Once a coin is in a dealer's case, it's just so much metal.  All the historical context about where it was found and how it came to be buried is lost.  It seems like a policy solely designed to enrich the national museum holdings and to give them trade fodder for dealing with other national museum collections.

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

The problem just got much worse. It expanded to include a third Italian dealer that I regularly do business with.

I just looked at a website that features several Italian dealers. This third Italian dealer can no longer ship to the USA. He can only ship to Italy and the EU. In his new auction, there is a banner containing a note stating this new restriction.

This creates yet another problem for me. In this third Italian dealer's last auction, I won a coin. He hasn't shipped it to me yet. In light of this new development, he may no longer be able to ship it to me. I haven't heard from him yet.

What is going on?

Meepzorp

[Virgil H]

I have no answers regarding the situation, but a possible suggestion. Could you have them ship it to someone you know in the EU? Then they could send it to you. It seems like there is no issue with selling these coins, but shipping outside the EU for some reason. So, I see no ethical concerns with my suggestion. Obviously you would have to have trust in who you have it shipped to. If I ever do this, I will have coins shipped to relatives in the UK. Even after Brexit, I am willing to bet the UK will still be OK for things like this.
Virgil

[Altamura]

... Could you have them ship it to someone you know in the EU? Then they could send it to you. ...

Do you really think that it is this easy to fool the authorities  .

This kind of regulations is also valid within the EU. Some months ago I bought some coins in Spain and when they were sent to Germany, where I am living, there have been as part of the letter also the official export documents from the Spanish authorities.

And after Brexit British truckers now have to hand over their ham sandwiches when entering the EU because of international regulations they have to follow now  . Don't hope that nothing changes after Brexit  .

Regards

Altamura

[Virgil H]

... Could you have them ship it to someone you know in the EU? Then they could send it to you. ...

Do you really think that it is this easy to fool the authorities  .

Don't hope that nothing changes after Brexit  .

Touche :-) I have bought a few coins that are mailed from Bulgaria. I don't know the laws there, but they are sent without customs information and looks like a thick standard envelope, like a thick greeting card. I never really thought about it, but perhaps they are circumventing local laws. I have no idea, but food for thought.
Regards,
Virgil

[Meepzorp]

Hi Jay,

You wrote this in a different thread in this section of Forum. I think it is more appropriate to post your quote here and respond to it here:

"Meep, Italy isn't giving out export licenses because of Shut downs, not because of changes in law.  The offices are closed."

During the past week or so, I have had extensive email communications with 2 dealers in Italy. I forwarded copies of most of those emails to Nick Molinari. I specifically asked one of the dealers that question (if the coronavirus pandemic and shutdowns had anything to do with it). The answer was unequivocally "No". Both dealers blamed the current situation on Italy's strangling and chronic bureaucracy. They both stated that it is now "impossible" (their exact word) to obtain an export permit from the Italian government.

One dealer told me that one office of Italy's Cultural Ministry may or may not be closed (they weren't sure). But all of the other offices of Italy's Cultural Ministry are open. Dealers in Italy must now present paperwork from before 1919. This dealer also told me that each "office" (in other words, each branch of Italy's Cultural Ministry in different cities) is interpreting Italy's export restriction laws differently. There is not uniform interpretation of the law. The exact word they used was "obtuse" (interpretation of the law). As a result of the lack of uniform interpretation of the law, this particular dealer has now resorted to scattering their export permit requests among multiple different offices (or branches) of Italy's Cultural Ministry located in multiple different cities in Italy. They are now basically "testing the system" (my words) to see which offices (cities) in Italy have the most/least "obtuse" interpretation of the law.

Meepzorp

[Jay GT4]

Hi Meep, that is Italy  

it has always been this way.  It's hard for people who don't live there to understand.  I tried to pay a parking ticket on a Wednesday at noon and was told I had to come back on Friday before 11.  They just wouldn't take my money on a Wednesday.  There is no rhyme or reason to it. Nobody could tell me why.  And that was before the pandemic.   Many offices are running with skeleton staff, Covid has hit everyone hard, especially in the north where most dealers are located.  I've been waiting for a passport for over a year!  A passport!  I requested it 6 months Before the pandemic, so you can imagine how long it will take now....   I don't doubt what you say.  It may be that it's the hard liners who are showing up to work.  It's easier for them to deny the request than do the mountain of bureaucratic paper work that makes Italy, Italy.  


Alberto would be able to shed more light on this, as he is currently there.

[FlaviusDomitianus]

Alberto would be able to shed more light on this, as he is currently there.

Actually I can't tell if there have been any recent changes with regard to export permits.

From a general point of view, I think that what the dealer has reported to Meepzorp is pretty much in line with reality.

Alberto

[Meepzorp]

It may be that it's the hard liners who are showing up to work.  It's easier for them to deny the request than do the mountain of bureaucratic paper work that makes Italy, Italy.

Hi Jay,

You may be right. I actually thought of that (and similar scenarios) myself. Perhaps this particular dealer had a specific person at their local branch office of Italy's Cultural Ministry that they always dealt with. And maybe, because of the coronavirus pandemic, this person is not there. The office may be open, but this specific person may not be there. And the person who is there may be a "hard liner" (as you describe them). This scenario is entirely possible. The dealer didn't tell me this. This is just my mind imagining different scenarios.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

I figured that I would keep everyone posted regarding this situation.

Just to refresh everyone's memory, I won a coin in an Italian auction in September 2020, and I paid for it at that time. It is a Campania, Cales AE MFB coin with unpublished symbols. Nick Molinari was very interested in this coin, and he wanted to write an academic article featuring it.

Earlier this week, I received an email from that Italian dealer informing me that his second attempt at obtaining an export license for this coin (from a branch of Italy's Cultural Ministry located in a different city) has failed. The Italian government has rejected the application a second time. Additionally, the Italian government didn't just reject the application for my coin, but it rejected every application for every coin from that auction sold to collectors outside Italy.

We exhausted all options, and the dealer refunded my money yesterday (via Paypal, which is how I paid him back in September 2020).

This Italian dealer informed me that this rejection came from headquarters in Rome (he is not located in Rome). He also informed me that Italy's export restriction rules changed in January 2021, and those restrictions got much more restrictive. Additionally, he informed me that, because of this situation, he will no longer be offering ancient coins for sale in his future auctions. Going forward, he will only be selling Medieval and modern coins.

In an email exchange with me earlier this week, one of the co-owners of this business kept repeatedly referring to this rejection as a "shameful situation".

A different dealer in Italy has informed me that he can no longer ship coins outside of Italy.

Meepzorp