Fake dessert patina

[Justin W]

Why do dealers put fake sand patinas on. I understand if it’s an eBay seller who is dealing with less experienced collectors so he figures he can fool them for more money. But I see that some very prominent dealers apply sand patinas to their coins. Sometimes I see these fake sand patinas applied to extremely rare coins, which makes me wonder are people paying more for a fake sand patina? On the contrary are the sellers making the coins less desirable and less expensive. Also, how difficult are most of these fake patinas to remove? Lastly, on this forum and other places I have seen fake sand patinas are almost always frowned upon so why are these sellers still applying these patinas to sometimes extremely rare coins even know the collecting community (that I’ve seen) mostly frowns upon it.


Best Regards,
Justin

[Jay GT4]

The "sand" patina makes the details stand out more and they can get more money for them.  It makes the coins more esthetically pleasing by giving them a contrasting background.  There are lots of real "sand" patinas.  After all, it's not really a patina, just encrusted dirt that hasn't been removed.  Many times what is underneath is pitted and rough.

Personally, I don't mind it, as long as it is noted by the seller and not done to conceal damage.  But I wouldn't pay more for it.

[Justin W]

I should probably clarify when I sand patina I just mean some leftover dirt or sand to highlight details. Jay I agree there are a lot of real sand patinas, but some coins which are extremely rare that just so happen to have a perfect “sand patina” is unlikely. Also, I do see some of these dealers clarifying that they are applying them. But is it appropriate to do such a thing to an extremely rare coin?

[Jay GT4]

In most cases it doesn't harm the coin and can be removed.

[Justin W]

Ok, thanks for the info jay. I was just wondering how easy/hard it is to take off. If it doesn’t harm the coin and it’s easy to take off I guess it’s not an issue.

[shanxi]

You can usually distinguish real from fake sand patina quite well. If you remove real sand patina, it usually forms little pieces and chips and you get sharp edges; artificial patina is usually more homogeneous with soft edges.

BTW: If you want to do it yourself, you can buy "fake sand patina" in every cosmetics department in any skin tone. 

[JBF]

Remember that for Israelite coins, its from the Holyland.  Therefore, the idea of having desert patina can be attractive to some who are religiously inclined.  (Doesn't do anything for me).  Or maybe, that is (perhaps) what some dealers think.

[Justin W]

Shanxi seeing fake sand patina coins, most have a weird color and are way to “balanced” or perfectly capturing every detail of the coin. Jbf you bring up a good point, I just wonder if the individuals who enjoy the sand “patina” pay more for the coin sometimes. I am only saying the price would be higher is because for people who can’t tell fake from real they would think the coin was found with the sand on it which makes it more attractive. Thank you for the input shanxi, Jay, and jbf.


Best Regards,
Justin

[Mark Fox]

Dear Justin W, Jay, Ralf, JBF, & Board,

I personally find fake patinas, desert or otherwise, largely distasteful, but there is a practical, semi-legitimate reason for their existence.  It can be summed up in the word "contrast." 

Some ancient bronzes, for instance, are black as tar (as in one or more of my brass Aezani Roman provincials).  If the natural earthen sediments on them were completely removed, it would not only be hard to study them in hand, but terribly tricky to photograph them satisfactorily for publication or online display.  A bit of sand (naturally or artificially applied) can go a long way in giving the coin depth and bringing out small details that would otherwise be hidden in a pool of inky patina. 

For RPC Online, I had submitted two early Roman provincial coins of the same type from Bithynia (again struck in brass) for inclusion in their database and last printed RPC supplement.  One was in really marvelous shape, quite possibly the best of its type currently known, but it was the other piece, worn and possibly stripped of its patina, that was illustrated in the supplement and online database.  That was because the first coin hardly had any contrast.  It was beautiful, yes, but also nearly pitch-black in color.  In that respect, the second coin was more "photogenic."

As a side note, in the early days of coin photography, it was common practice not to take pictures of the coins themselves, but of plaster casts of them, to avoid the problems discussed above which would have been even more problematic back in the day.  One of the benefits of this practice is that we have "3D images" of certain coins whose current whereabouts are unknown.

I could go on, but I hope what I have been able to jot down here was helpful to you.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan           

[Justin W]

Hey Mark, that is a very good point about some coins being extremely hard to photograph because of their patina. I have a Nero coin in my gallery which is very dark, but is easier to see in the photograph. I would think nowadays messing with photo settings could make a coin more visible, but I’m pretty sure that would be a misrepresentation of the coin. Also we’re plaster casts viable for an individual collector. I was looking at old coin photo techniques and I remember one of them was scanning the coin. I think this alone is a very interesting conversation. Thanks for the for the valuable input as always Mark.


Best Regards,
Justin

[Per D]

Hi Justin,

It all depends how the dust was applied. Sometimes soaks in distilled water, or just a quick rinse, and some gentle brushing is enough. Acetone is also quite effective for dissolving some glues. One possible problem with artificial patinas is that they could hide bronze disease.

[Justin W]

Thank you Per for explaining the actual process. That’s what scares me even if I bought a coin and removed fake sand. I’m not even sure if one could request a return at that point.


Best Regards,

Justin

[SC]

If the fake patina is mentioned in the description you could ask if there was a guarantee if it hid bronze disease or serious damage.

But if it was not mentioned as fake and you determined it was - for example real desert patina does not come off just because you wet the coin and give it a quick rub on cloth - you should be able to return it based on the fake patina alone, let alone any damage it hid.

SC

[Justin W]

Shawn you make a great point I was recently cleaning real sand patinas an simply putting dw on them does not take any of it off. The sand I see on the coins that mention that the sand is fake, looks like the fake sand would come off with a simple wash and rub.


Best Regards,
Justin