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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Septimius Severus, strange Aeqvitas reverse 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Septimius Severus, strange Aeqvitas reverse  (Read 886 times)
Flamur H
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« on: October 21, 2020, 06:18:56 am »

Hello all, i wonder what is your opinion on this coin guys ?

I find this reverse a bit odd because Aeqvitas looks like its holding patera and cornucopia in left hand?
Also positioning of letters is a bit odd. Last letter I and A on Aeqvita_t_IAvgg seems a bit lower positioned then on other types of this coin.

Anyways i would like to hear your opinion. Coin is 19 mm, 2.4 gr.

Its 100 % ancient coin. Not a modern fake. Also by looks of it, looks official issue?

Can i have your opinions please, thanks !


* severus_aevitati_avgg.jpg (891.47 KB, 1900x1039 - viewed 32 times.)

* severus_reverse_redline.jpg (845.73 KB, 1484x1500 - viewed 32 times.)
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Flamur H
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2020, 04:22:17 am »

I can take better pics if needed ?
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curtislclay
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2020, 08:28:48 am »

Looks to me like a normal new-style Syrian denarius of Septimius Severus. The apparent patera on rev. will be a die break.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2020, 11:10:40 am »

Looks to me like a normal new-style Syrian denarius of Septimius Severus. The apparent patera on rev. will be a die break.


Hello Curtislclay, thanks for reply.  I took that possibility of die break but letters seems to be differently positioned too with different angle. Its not only that it looks like its holding patera but to be honest cornucopia also looks different, like its double picture showing cornucopia and something else (maybe severd head on patera )

I would be glad to accept theory of broken dies but then i will have to see other example of this coin where die was not broken.  Look how letters are positioned in this coin and look how are they positioned in standard versions of this issue:

Find me similar angle of letters like on this coin then ill believe its die break,  i absolutely cannot find match for this coin.  


* severus_aeqvitati_avgg111.jpg (896.92 KB, 1900x1039 - viewed 29 times.)

* image00291.jpg (340.4 KB, 1500x796 - viewed 26 times.)
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Flamur H
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2020, 11:25:58 am »

Here is few more examples, as it can be seen letters I and A on aeqvita_t_IAvgg are differently positioned with different angle while on our coin last letter I is almost horizontal, unlike on any of these examples.
 


* 553R.jpg (195.88 KB, 723x691 - viewed 26 times.)

* 849d118b-3fa9-4b47-aba1-ae57c303ffac.jpg (157.49 KB, 700x632 - viewed 28 times.)

* 78173da7-4727-4d31-bd3a-250281a1c42f.jpg (175.41 KB, 700x700 - viewed 26 times.)
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curtislclay
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2020, 11:55:41 am »

Flamur,

Does it seem likely to you that the engraver deliberately added a severed human head on a plate to the standard type of Aequitas holding scales and cornucopia?

A quiz for you and others who may want to participate: your coin is new-style Syrian as I said, but what are the mint or mints of the other four specimens you show?
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2020, 12:24:54 pm »

Dear Curtisclay, do you see duck or rabbit on first picture ?   In either case this is what this coin reminds me on. Its cornucopia but also severed head on patera.   I have no idea what engraver was doing when this coin was made and i would also like to know but this is far from standard issue of this coin as i show on many examples on previous posts and none of types which are supposed to be same as this type dont match this coin. Neither i was able to find any similar on internet. And i checked almost all reversese of this type that there are on internet.

How is this standard issue of this coin when letters are differently positioned and we have this patera and parts of cornucopia that look more as a severed head then usual cornucopia on this issue.

I can accept that this might be broken die and there is no patera and severed head but then why engraver deliberately changed stile and position of letters just for this unusual design to fit.   Looks like letters are deliberately moved so change can fit properly, change that we might think its broken die ?

Check reverse on this second coin of Licinius, to me it first looked something like this:



* illusions.jpg (152.28 KB, 1023x614 - viewed 26 times.)

* merged_0.jpg (615.48 KB, 1984x944 - viewed 28 times.)
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curtislclay
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2020, 01:03:45 pm »

I think the lettering on your coin is standard, not intentionally differentiated from that on the other four examples you show and on dozens of others. Letters were fit in where there was space; small differences were arbitrary and meaningless. Another example on the reverse of your coin: there wasn't enough room for all four letters of AVGG, so the second G had to be placed intersecting the ground line and extending into the exergue.

There was a clear stylistic difference, however, between Syrian and Roman examples of this denarius. Can you tell which mint or mints the other four you show belong to?
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2020, 06:24:02 am »

Dear Curtislclay, i dont know to which mints or what are IDs on other coins i posted. I took them randomly from internet as these were closest coins i could find looking somewhat close to my coin.  Furthermore i was never into a Septimius Severus coins because i am somewhat novice collector and these few coins of Septimius Severus that i had from before were somewhat more circulated and very standard so they didn't make me to want to study them in details like this coin did when i got it.

Therefore i checked more coins of Septimius Severus yesterday and today trying to spot these differences that you are talking about.
I found online collection of guy named Barry P. Murphy and seems he has plenty of fully identified Septimius Severus variations so looking at his collection i would agree that there is somewhat visible difference in portraits of Roman mint Septimius Severs and these in east like Greece, Anatolia, or Middle East.

Furthermore, among Barry collection i found types that look like my coin and are closest to what my coin looks like therefore these are classified under Laodicea mint coins.

Let me post these issues:

Laodicea:


SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS. 193-211 AD. AR Denarius (3.46 gm). Laodicea mint. Struck 201 AD. L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head right / AEQVITA-TI AVGG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopiae in left. RIC IV 500; BMCRE 650; RSC 21.



SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS. 193-211 AD. AR Denarius (3.72 gm). Laodicea mint. Struck 201 AD. L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head right / AEQVITA-TI AVGG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopiae in left. RIC IV 500; BMCRE 650; RSC 21.



SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS. 193-211 AD. AR Denarius (2.93 gm). Laodicea mint. Struck 201 AD. L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind / AEQVITA-TI AVGG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopiae in left. RIC IV -; BMCRE -; RSC 22a. Same dies as Arnold lot 5.  



SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS. 193-211 AD. AR Denarius (3.73 gm). Laodicea mint. Struck 201 AD. L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head right / AEQVITA-TI AVGG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand, sceptre in left. RIC IV -; BMCRE -; RSC -.  Unrecorded with Aequitas holding a sceptre. Ex Roger Bickford-Smith Collection.

ROME:


SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS. 193-211 AD. AR Denarius (3.46 gm). Struck 198-200 AD. L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head right / AEQVITA-TI AVGG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopiae in left. RIC IV 122(c); BMCRE 122; RSC 21.




Therefore i believe my coin is probably eastern mint, with Laodicea in Anatolia or Syria being best guess?

However as it can clearly be seen on all these other examples, none of them matches my coin. Biggest difference is in my coin Aeqvitas looks like its holding Patera which could be die break and therefore its not patera but its build up silver on a cracked die. But if it is cracked die and its build up silver that does not explain why engraver obviously left space for patera in design and also for what it seems to be larger cornucopia but actually looking as a severed head.

The last letters IA on aeqvitatIAvgg  seems very differently and horizontally placed only so extra design could fit. Therefore if letters are pushed so design can fit, its hardly a die break and build-up silver.

Its obvious  that on all other examples of this issue letter I is on 1 o clock, while on my coin is almost on 3 o clock horizontally, also its smaller only so extra design could fit.


Open for debate ?    There is no doubt that none of these coins posted here matches my coin.
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curtislclay
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2020, 11:52:13 am »

But all of the other examples you show would have had ample space for an added patera, if that was the engraver's intention. Yet none of them shows a patera or a severed head.

However, believe what you will!
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2020, 02:02:00 pm »

But all of the other examples you show would have had ample space for an added patera, if that was the engraver's intention. Yet none of them shows a patera or a severed head.

However, believe what you will!

Thats right, otherwise if all of them would show patera then it would be nothing unusual about this coin.
Why would all of them have to had patera ?  There can be more variations....
Like this one which is obviously missing standard cornucopia but instead of cornucopia Aeqvitas is holding transverse scepter. Its more rare variety:



* roman-empire-coins-septimius-severus-193-211-empire-romain-septime-severe-denier-r-aeqvitati-avgg-3-17-grs-ttb-ttbplus_6833a.jpg (171.63 KB, 1000x500 - viewed 26 times.)
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Flamur H
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2020, 02:15:12 pm »

I dont have to believe anything. Difference is obvious and facts are here to be seen. Whoever looks at these designs and letter positioning will see that there are at least 3 various types of this coin.

Maybe i am imagining severed head, or even patera which is obviously there, but its impossible with these two unique features on this coin that also this coin has uniquely positioned letters like no other coin of this type.  That is too many coincidences all to be at the same time on same coin.  


* ae1.jpg (824.27 KB, 3324x1088 - viewed 30 times.)
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curtislclay
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2020, 02:32:30 pm »

Maybe you should put up a poll, to see how many people believe in your new Aequitas type with patera and perhaps severed head?
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2020, 02:58:01 pm »

Hehe, that is not bad idea. But to tell you the truth i was sceptic too. I changed opinion few times.

I am exploring this coin for last 10 days and it was fun experience and i learned many things, however, this coin still remains mystery for me even tho i am pretty confident it is unique type so far.


Thread is open for everyone to comment
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Flamur H
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2020, 01:24:37 pm »

Added in gallery with new high quality foto

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-166351


Septimius Severus / Aeqvitati AVGG / Unique type
Septimius Severus denarius, closest to this type is RIC IV 500; BMCRE 650; RSC 21 but still very different.
L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, laureate head right / AEQVITA-TI AVGG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopiae in left.
What makes this type unique is Aeqvitas seems to also hold patera in left hand and cornucopiae is visualised to look as severed head on patera.
Because of this extra design this type has uniquely positioned letters with unique angle. Letters IA are almost horizontally positioned on 3 o clock unlike on similar types letters IA are on 1 o clock.
2.45 gr, 19 mm. Found in Roman province of Pannonia. Most likely minted in Laodicea ad Mare in Syria.
Numismatic note: very beautiful style, toned.


* Septimius_Severus_Aeqvitati_Avgg.jpg (826.64 KB, 3000x1475 - viewed 37 times.)
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2020, 05:00:56 am »

I have resisted posting in this thread until now but I cannot hold back any longer.

A alternative, and I believe more accurate description might read...

AEQVITA-TI AVGG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopiae in left.
The mouth of the cornucopia is slightly larger than seen on some other examples and die wear has led to the detail of the fruit flowing from it becoming indistinct. There is an unusual blob to the right of Aequitas that is likely die damage leading out from Aequitas' elbow.
Because of the overly large mouth of the cornucopia the legend engraver has had to spread the letters I and A slightly further apart than on some other examples.

Regards,
Martin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2020, 08:54:09 am »

Martin,

You say letters I and A spread apart. Do you mean T and I?
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2020, 09:00:59 am »

Maridvnvm, thanks for reply, dont hesitate !!!!!  Interesting perception but still then we have larger and unusual cornucopia for some reason ? There is no any known type with so large cornucopia which would make engraver change position and angle of letters. But still interesting option and i dont discard it i just say.

BTW posted this on facebook and Barry Murphy which i mentioned in this thread earlier but also some guys earlier, practically everyone is saying broken die.
One of my friends said he sees severed head on oil lamp hehe if that counts.

Anyways also one guy posted one coin that i have to agree is most similar to this coin.  

I did a bit of analysis and concluded that my coin could not come out of this coin after die break. Simply letters in this coin are overlapping with parts of severed head (larger cornucopia) and old position and angle of letters would not fit in our case.


Coin 1 is the one most similar to my coin, its from museum in USA. Second coin is my coin. Third coin are these two merged together.
As seen on this photo analysis letter I on standard version is overlapping with part of head (larger cornucopia) and this specific part is C shaped and very sharp (marked with red) therefore does not look at all like random silver build-up but rather as intentionally engraved.



* merged900kb.jpg (859.47 KB, 3200x935 - viewed 31 times.)
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2020, 11:34:31 am »

Hi Curtis,
You are correct. I must admnit that I think rhe position of the lettering is largely irrelevant in this series but if you really felt the need to mention if then...
Best,
Martin
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2020, 02:41:32 pm »

If letter positioning would be irrelevant there would be at least one more example with letters positioned like this. Fact that letters are moved near the new design tells that they are probably moved so new design could fit. If this kind of letter position would be typical there would be at least one more coin of this type with letters positioned like this.

Yet every single one of them has letter I at aeqvita_t_Iavgg at two o clock at same angle. You can see from airplane even on small thumbnail pictures its immediately visible that this is the only one with letters positioned like this.

What are the chances for coin to have new design and also to be the only known specimen to have letters pushed further down as no known example of this type ?

It can be clearly seen on merged foto where two coins were merged into one. Die break could not possibly be result of this.
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2020, 06:14:30 am »

I have handled handreds and studied thousands of coins from this series. This is nowhere near the numbers studied by Curtis or Barry. I doubt that you would find many people who would concur with you but how you categorise your own coins is entirely up to you.
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Flamur H
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2020, 07:42:42 am »

Do you think im looking for people to concur with me or that i care about this coin at all?  Not really, this is only fun to me and this coin has already paid himself off by giving me so much fun and interesting moments by exploring it. Do you think that two of us would be here debating about this coin if it would be standard typical coin and if it would be nothing interesting or  unusual about it ? I think not. Also why would anyone have to concur with me ?  Its not that i claim anything. If you read my first post i never said there is a severed head on patera. What i said is cornucopiae is visualised to look as a severed head. Which i still believe hence there is no cornucopiae like this anywhere to be seen and i dont need to use a lot of imagination to see severed head since its very obvious, also what i said is that because of new design is taking that place we have new letter angle and position like on no other type of this coin. Which is also true.

Furthermore i have respect for your experience and also for experience of mr. Barry and also Curtis.   But simply saying fake and giving zero proofs cannot satisfy my appetite for exploring and finding new things. I need solid concrete proofs, i need some tell tell signs. Not just simple "fake" or "die break" explanation.

I am extremely glad that you analysed thousands of these coins from this series, maybe you will give me some additional explanation. Believe me, i am very reasonable, I would be glad to accept whatever theory but first i need to see at least somewhat solid proves not just some possibility.  

You said engraver used larger cornucopia as a base and that is what made him to push letters further down like on no other sample of this coin.
Mr Barry said this is simply broken die (perhaps talking about patera and severed head) but he never explained or reply why letters are positioned like on no other type of these series.
If you look closely these are already two different opinions. And to be honest your explanation makes more sense, since if it was larger cornucopia and dies broken it might be the reason why letters are pushed further down and we got new design by accident.

Anyways whoever says that this is a broken die i think it would be correct from him to post version of this coin where die was not broken. I would really love to see coin from this type but before die broke up or how it was supposed to look without broken die.  Please just find me a coin which was supposed to be this coin before die broken and explain me how these changes occurred with broken die and no one will be more happy then me to accept whatever theory.

And btw just for the record i did not overpay for this coin, my friend found it, we often trade, i got it almost like for free.  Im not invested or anything in this, i know exactly where it was found. This is all only fun to me, could not care less about this coin.   Best regards F.H.
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Ron C2
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2020, 07:09:18 am »

Out of curiosity, why do you think it is a patera? Why not a globe or orb?

Obviously this is a very different coin, but to me it looks like the reverse was engraved as a globe and then corrected by the clamor to be a cornucopia. But I am not an expert.

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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2020, 09:34:57 pm »

Out of curiosity, why do you think it is a patera? Why not a globe or orb?

Obviously this is a very different coin, but to me it looks like the reverse was engraved as a globe and then corrected by the clamor to be a cornucopia. But I am not an expert.


Sol is holding a globe on your coin. There is no cornucopia.
RIC VII Siscia 37
CLARITAS-R-EIPVBLICAE, Sol standing left, chlamys across
left shoulder, holding globe, right hand raised.
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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2020, 07:14:25 am »

I'm not sure you understood my post. I'm suggesting the OP coin die was carved as a globe, but then modified later to instead be a cornucopia to correct the mistake.

I showed a random coin of the reverse pose I thought the origin die might have looked like before being corrected.
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