Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Suspected Soloi and Mallos transfer die fakes + tooled Soloi stater 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Suspected Soloi and Mallos transfer die fakes + tooled Soloi stater  (Read 99 times)
Din X
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« on: September 14, 2020, 10:22:13 am »

I will start with the tooled Soloi stater, which is suspected to be a transfer die fake, too, for more read my second post.
Fortunately the coin was sold first untooled and a picture is available of its untooled state.
And after this it got tooled and offered by 2 auction houses and is for sale again at the moment.
(Notified auction house)

The edge cracks are identical even the small ones, the flan shape and centering is the same and the weight difference is about what is to be expected if we consider that material was added to fill the test cut (11´o clock on revers) and a flan fault or test cut not sure what it was at (9 o´clock on reverse.) and to fill the other thing mentioned below.  
Weight before tooling 10,68 gramm after tooling 10.83 gramm.

They have removed the test cut and recutted the part of the bunch of grapes, that was damaged/removed by test cut and on obverse they have removed the damadged details due to slippage (arm, leg)  by adding material too and then polishing it and then removing the strange round thing right to the ivy leaf and the strange canal starting at the round thing right to ivy leaf by adding material.






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Din X
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2020, 11:16:20 am »

Now to the suspected transfer die fakes.
The upper part of the Amazons head seems to be cut off (generally there is something on the back of  the amazons head that goes up, not sure what it is) and a part of the sigma is missing exactly where the planchet of the assumed authentic mother endes.
Coincidence?
The dotted border on the reverse was recut wrong (the dotted border is incomplete on the assumed authentic mother).
The assumed authentic mother has slippage on the obverse (leg, arm etc.) a completely identical slippage can be seen on the suspected coins, which means that the strike must have been for those always 100% identical which is impossible or it was in the dies but from die study we know that it was not in the authentic dies so it must an individual characteristic from striking which was transferred from the authetnic mother into the transfer dies.  
There is a strange round hole and canal near the ivy leaf on all suspected coins (on one not anymore because removed by tooling), I do not kow what it is all I know is, that it was not in the authentic ancient dies (haven´t found an authentic coins from same or later die state with it), maybe a transfer error or some material was stuck on the die and this material must be then sticking strong enough to stay there even if there is much heat and pressure from striking.

To the reverse die, there is a die flaw starting at grapes going to the lambda, this die break can be found on the authentic dies too, and so we can prove that they are from the same dies. But there are authentic coins from this reverse die, that have another die break/flaw that connects the omicron with the dotted border, so this authentic dies, that show a stronger die break (labda) and another die break (omicron), must be form a later die state.
The die break connecting the omicron with can be found on the assume suspected mother, too.
Authentic coins from possibly the same and a later die state have a different dotted border and a complete SIGMA.


We know:

1. They have all identical slippage, but this is impossible because it means 100% identical strike
2. Damaged Sigma although the Sigma is not damaged on authentic coins from the same die same or later die states and the missing part of sigma fits perfectly to the part of sigma missing on the assumed authentic mother due to bad centering
3. The dotted border on reverse is different as on authentic coins from the same dies, which means it must be recut and dotted border is different there where it was missing on the assumed authentic mother due to bad centering.
4. The part of the head on the Amazon is missing althoug it was in the original dies (coins from the same dies same and later die state have compelte head) and the missing part of the head is completely identical with the part missing on the assumed authentic mother due to bad centering.
5. This strange hole and canal near the  ivy leaf which can be found on all suspected coins and which can not be found on any authetnic coin from same or alter die stae and which was so not in the original authenic ancient dies.
6. There is a Mallos-Soloi Hybrid with same reverse die (recut dotted border) and damaged sigma and imho such die links are very suspicious especially if the Mallos overse is very soapy (has other problems too, but authentic ones are often bad struck and centered and some were struck from worn dies, which makes a die study extremely difficult, where we would have reconstructed which details were in the ancient dies and which not  )

Picture 1, shows only the suspected transfer dies fakes and what they have in common, damadged sigma, incomplete head, slippage,  hole and canal etc.
Picture 2 Authentic mother (top) vs suspected transfer die fake (bottom), same slippage, and that there exactly the same part of  sigma and head are missing due to bad centering
Picture 3 left side authentic vs right side suspected transfer die fakes
Blue arrow shows the die breaks proving same dies and the same blue arrow shows the omicron die break.
Violet cycle shows the differences although the are die matches, incompelte Simga vs compelte Sigma and normal dotted border vs recutted one.
picture 4, left side suspected coin vs right side authetnic coin (as far as I can tell from same dies, could only find 2 obverse and reverse dies with this helmet symbol and these dies look very different to each other), waht I want to show, how a compelte head with hear should look like and  there is as far as I know on most coins from Soli from these issues on the back of the head of the amazon something that goes up.
The bow is disconnected from the shoulder due to this strange canal
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Blindado
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 06:53:28 pm »

This is very interesting! I do not collect Greek coins, but I developed an interest in the amazons before the current craze when I bought a denarius of Crassus that, it turns out, has an historically accurate portrayal of a Scythian woman horse warrior on the reverse (see https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=112749.0. I also purchased one of these coins from a reputable dealer (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-145931). The coin portrays an historically accurate Scythin warrior, highlighted by the goritos (quiver) and style of bow. A Scythian warrior would not be wearing a helmet. She most likely is wearing a variant of the peaked Scythian hat. I search regularly for coins depicting amazons, and I have been surprised how many of these have started appearing among dealers on VCoins. You may have uncovered the reason for that. The theme of amazons is hot now, with the Wonder Woman movie and ground-breaking archeological work done since the end of the USSR opened the old Scythian lands to researchers. Demand for related coins has probably jumped.
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djmacdo
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2020, 04:41:29 am »

Din X,

As ever, your keen powers of observation are instructive and deeply appreciated.  Thank you!

Mac
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