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Author Topic: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters  (Read 15949 times)

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Offline OldMoney

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #150 on: October 19, 2020, 07:44:15 pm »
... I've been waiting for a better explanation than this since August 30th. ...

Again: An explanation of a phenomenon does not automatically become true and valid only because there is no better one on the market. If an explanation is not accepted and there is no better alternative, then the phenomenon just goes back into the status "unexplained", that's all  :-\.

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Altamura

This, THIS! A thousand times THIS!!

Altamura gets it, and sums it up perfectly. Thank you.

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Offline glebe

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #151 on: October 19, 2020, 07:56:01 pm »
So it really comes down to the sampi.  Is it really a sampi and does the sampi necessarily denote a number? (And I ask this of the group)

Well it's certainly seems to be a sampi, but is it a number here?

I can't say, but I can say the number 900 is very unusual, and as such it typifies the problem with the whole numeric theory - the varying and unsystematic nature of the numbers that the theory throws up.

Ross G.

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #152 on: October 19, 2020, 08:35:13 pm »
Thanks Ross.  I believe I understand the issue better now.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #153 on: October 19, 2020, 09:57:31 pm »

And how do they verify the weight of these 10,000 coins? they certainly could not load them on a truck and take it to the weighbridge...


This indicates how intellectually and logically bereft the numeric proponent's arguments have become.

Answer to the question: a set of balance scales and a balance weights, both of which are attested to in the ancient Greek world.

60 Mina to the Talent ( again sexaguesimal base numbering) and you weigh the 10,000 coins in tranches and sum the total.

But the problem is even simpler. Daily reconciliation of input and output would be required to prevent malfeasance in the mint. It would be inadequate identifying pilferage through a mint control process days or weeks after it happened and the king would be pretty pissed with this outcome, no doubt demanding mint overseer's head on a platter!.

Daily striking rates on a single anvil are the paramount consideration in this regard. All the evidence based on very significant die study of the monthly dated issues of Mithradates VI points to a maximum sustainable average rate of 3,000 coins/day per anvil in a high-volume mint operation. Refer : Callataÿ, F. de. L’histoire des guerres mithridatiques vue par les monnaies. Numismatica Lovaniensia 18, Louvain-la-Neuve, 1997.


From extensive die studies at other mints with dated coinage such Sidon and Tyre in the late 4th century BC far lower striking rates, less than 1,000 coins/day per anvil are the norm.

So the problem of weighing the coinage output per striking team (which is identified by a specific mint mark) on a daily basis and reconciling this to the weight of bullion delivered to that team/anvil is far simpler than the confected problem with which the numeric monogram proponent  seeks to blow smoke over the counter argument.

It is only necessary to weigh a few hundred to few thousand coins at the end of the day and reconcile this back to the amount of bullion delivered to the anvil for striking. Any shortcoming is thus identified before the culprit even leaves the mint!

3,000 drachms struck at the Attic weight standard is half a talent = 30 Mina = 13 kg at the Attic weight standard. This hardly requires a weigh bridge or advanced technology to achieve such an enormous feat of measurement!

And don't believe for one moment that talents of bullion were delivered to the anvil for striking in one go and that only at the end of days/weeks/months of striking was a reconciliation undertaken as implied in the paper and by the numeric proponent.

Rather, at most a few Mina at a time would have been provided to each anvil at any one time and then immediately after striking into coin it would reconciled to the weight of coined output, so as to expose pilferage in real-time.

To repeat:
(1) The monograms in the case of multiple mint controls on a single coin exist in a hierarchy and serve to identify successively the mint of origin and/or the king's instruction on which the coinage was undertaken, the mint overseer, and the striking team (i.e. anvil specific in the event of a multi-anvil striking operation).
(2) This structure and hierarchy of mint controls served to identify unequivocally those engaged in the production coinage down to the level of a specific coin and served to facilitate the mint's control and reconciliation process.
(3) Unequivocal identification of those engaged in the production of a coinage accompanied by a process of continuous weight reconciliation (input weight versus output weigh) served to act as the primary deterrent against pilferage of the king's bullion.
(4) The reconciliation process (weight for weight) was undertaken in real-time i.e. daily, or potentially more frequently with each batch of bullion delivered to the anvil. This only required the weighing of a few hundred to at most a few thousand coins at a time on balance scales using Mina and fractional Mina balance weights.
(5) The identification by a hierarchy of monograms of those involved also served to deter the risk of debasement of metal in the mint, for even after the coin left the mint if was found to be debased those responsible could be identified via the mint marks (monograms). Retribution in such a circumstance would be swift.
(6) In all of this decimal base mathematical gymnastics with numbers played no useful (dare I say conceivable) role.

So please don't bleat anymore about not understanding what these ligatures of Greek letter mean. They are mint controls that served an identifying purpose in a mint's control process aimed at insuring the king's instructions were fulfilled in the most efficient manner possible. They served to identify those involved and through that very fact to act as a deterrent to trying to screw over the king by mint workers and administrators. This all accords with conventional numismatic understanding and is at the heart of numismatic typology of any coin series, in many instances fully supported by rigorous die analysis.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #154 on: October 19, 2020, 11:32:03 pm »
So it really comes down to the sampi.  Is it really a sampi and does the sampi necessarily denote a number? (And I ask this of the group)

Yes and No respectively.

This archaic letter sampi persisted in some Greek dialects down to the 1st century BC and is to be found on coinage epigraphy where it is clearly a letter eg. the coinage of Messembria examples below, where it is the result of the assimilation of sigma and tau in the city ethnic spelled out on the reverse. Several Greek dialects used this assimilated form to phonetically define the correct pronunciation of the sound that combined sigma tau.

In 4th century BC Athens the there is a set of 25 metal tokens, each stamped with one of the letters from alpha to sampi that were probably used as identification marks for judges in the courts of the Athenian democracy.  

So the association of the usage of the letter sampi exclusively with the number 900 in the Milesian (Ionic) numbering system is misleading. It was also as a letter in the Classical and Hellenistic era in several Greek dialects. Its presence on the coinage of Ptolemy does not prove a need for numeric interpretation for the Greek ligatures. It probably represents the use of one of many Greek dialects among the mint workers. Alexandria was after all a real melting pot in the Hellenistic era and attracted intellectuals, artisans and workers from all over the Greek world.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline glebe

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2020, 01:41:43 am »
So it really comes down to the sampi.  Is it really a sampi and does the sampi necessarily denote a number? (And I ask this of the group)

Yes and No respectively.

This archaic letter sampi persisted in some Greek dialects down to the 1st century BC and is to be found on coinage epigraphy where it is clearly a letter eg. the coinage of Messembria examples below, where it is the result of the assimilation of sigma and tau in the city ethnic spelled out on the reverse. Several Greek dialects used this assimilated form to phonetically define the correct pronunciation of the sound that combined sigma tau.

In 4th century BC Athens the there is a set of 25 metal tokens, each stamped with one of the letters from alpha to sampi that were probably used as identification marks for judges in the courts of the Athenian democracy.  

So the association of the usage of the letter sampi exclusively with the number 900 in the Milesian (Ionic) numbering system is misleading. It was also as a letter in the Classical and Hellenistic era in several Greek dialects. Its presence on the coinage of Ptolemy does not prove a need for numeric interpretation for the Greek ligatures. It probably represents the use of one of many Greek dialects among the mint workers. Alexandria was after all a real melting pot in the Hellenistic era and attracted intellectuals, artisans and workers from all over the Greek world.

That's what I was waiting for - someone who actually knows something about sampi's.

I think people can now draw their own conclusions.

Ross G.


Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2020, 05:34:26 am »

But the problem is even simpler. Daily reconciliation of input and output would be required to prevent malfeasance in the mint. It would be inadequate identifying pilferage through a mint control process days or weeks after it happened and the king would be pretty pissed with this outcome, no doubt demanding mint overseer's head on a platter!.







MY ANSWER:

Even my wife when she makes meatballs determines how much meat she has to knead to get out the predetermined number of meatballs and, before cooking them, she counts them. Pity she makes a maximum of ten meatballs not hundreds of thousands ... In that case it is much easier to get confused. Furthermore, in a mint, it is not certain that there was a daily input of raw precious metal which corresponded to a punctual output in terms of coins on a daily basis. Surely at the end of the day there remained raw precious metal not yet worked, hence the need to count the minted coins from hand to hand and separate them so as not to be forced to recount everything all over again at the end, which would have been a backbreaking and annoying job. Especially since an ancient mint was not a modern assembly line that allows you to know precisely what goes in and what goes out ...

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2020, 05:49:57 am »
So it really comes down to the sampi.  Is it really a sampi and does the sampi necessarily denote a number? (And I ask this of the group)

Yes and No respectively.

This archaic letter sampi persisted in some Greek dialects down to the 1st century BC and is to be found on coinage epigraphy where it is clearly a letter eg. the coinage of Messembria examples below, where it is the result of the assimilation of sigma and tau in the city ethnic spelled out on the reverse. Several Greek dialects used this assimilated form to phonetically define the correct pronunciation of the sound that combined sigma tau.

In 4th century BC Athens the there is a set of 25 metal tokens, each stamped with one of the letters from alpha to sampi that were probably used as identification marks for judges in the courts of the Athenian democracy.  

So the association of the usage of the letter sampi exclusively with the number 900 in the Milesian (Ionic) numbering system is misleading. It was also as a letter in the Classical and Hellenistic era in several Greek dialects. Its presence on the coinage of Ptolemy does not prove a need for numeric interpretation for the Greek ligatures. It probably represents the use of one of many Greek dialects among the mint workers. Alexandria was after all a real melting pot in the Hellenistic era and attracted intellectuals, artisans and workers from all over the Greek world.


Of course, why didn't I think about it before? They're all coincidences. In Alexandria's mint worked a person who spoke a dialect that still used sampi, despite being used for at least a century and a half to indicate the number 900.. It is a conicidence that on coin no. 31 of my reconstruction there is a diacritic sign denoted the numbers right near the monogram. It is a coincidence that on the gold staters of Ptolemy I monograms lend themselves to being dissolved as a number sequence (the first) and as a number indicating the limit of 500,000 staters or 100,000 drachms (the second). It is a coincidence that multiplying the number of obverse dies identified by the theoretical yield of each of them (20,000 coins) gives a figure close to what I assumed was the emission limit. It is by chance that on the didrachm of Massalia there is the symbol of Talent (perhaps alluded to the parable of Jesus...). They are all coincidences all the similarities below...

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2020, 05:55:38 am »
On the epigraph is a number, on the coin NO

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2020, 05:59:48 am »
On the epigraph is a number, on the coin NO

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2020, 06:04:33 am »
On this coin of Velia (Lucania) the monogram (an M with an A above) of course is NOT the number 10,000 of the attic system because it is not possible that there are numbers on the coins (on the transcitation of the epigraph above instead YES).

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2020, 06:12:03 am »
On the Egyptian papyri the symbol of talent indicates sums of money BUT NOT ON COINS where perhaps it indicates the weight of not known what but still NOT WHAT DE LUCA THE HERETIC SAYS ...

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #162 on: October 20, 2020, 06:23:32 am »

And it is always by chance that the number of coins included in this issue, which appears to be suggested by the monograms that characterize it, is perfectly compatible with the number of presumptive coins obtained by multiplying the obverse dies traced with the presumed yield of 20,000 coins for each of them. The emission of the image is being treated here:

https://www.academia.edu/39997497/F_De_Luca_Monograms_on_staters_minted_in_Aspendos_during_the_IV_III_Century_BC_numerical_notes_linked_to_the_size_of_the_issue_Revue_Numismatique_OMNI_no_13_07_2019_pp_40_71

 but the issue applies to so many other issues that I have reconstructed.

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #163 on: October 20, 2020, 06:24:43 am »
sorry, typing error..

Offline glebe

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #164 on: October 20, 2020, 03:29:26 pm »
On the Egyptian papyri the symbol of talent indicates sums of money BUT NOT ON COINS where perhaps it indicates the weight of not known what but still NOT WHAT DE LUCA THE HERETIC SAYS ...

The talent was a weight, not a sum of money. The value of a talent depended on what the talent was made of.

On the papyrus shown the talent symbol means a talent weight. The instruction is to pay the agent of Thewnos 4 talent (weights) of copper (xa(lkou)).

Ross G.

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #165 on: October 20, 2020, 03:58:29 pm »
On the Egyptian papyri the symbol of talent indicates sums of money BUT NOT ON COINS where perhaps it indicates the weight of not known what but still NOT WHAT DE LUCA THE HERETIC SAYS ...

The talent was a weight, not a sum of money. The value of a talent depended on what the talent was made of.

On the papyrus shown the talent symbol means a talent weight. The instruction is to pay the agent of Thewnos 4 talent (weights) of copper (xa(lkou)).

Ross G.


And how could he have paid if not with copper coins? Or could he pay for it with raw copper ingots? A little uncomfortable, isn't it? In chapter 25 of the Gospel of Matthew there is the famous parable of the talents in which a wealthy man gives his servants sums of money expressed in talents. In fact, the terms translated into English as "bags" actually in the original Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew are referred to as "talents" and are clearly sums of money..

Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew: https://www.bibbiaedu.it/GRECO_NT/nt/Mt/25/

Offline glebe

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #166 on: October 20, 2020, 05:11:55 pm »
On the Egyptian papyri the symbol of talent indicates sums of money BUT NOT ON COINS where perhaps it indicates the weight of not known what but still NOT WHAT DE LUCA THE HERETIC SAYS ...

The talent was a weight, not a sum of money. The value of a talent depended on what the talent was made of.

On the papyrus shown the talent symbol means a talent weight. The instruction is to pay the agent of Thewnos 4 talent (weights) of copper (xa(lkou)).

Ross G.


And how could he have paid if not with copper coins? Or could he pay for it with raw copper ingots? A little uncomfortable, isn't it? In chapter 24 of the Gospel of Matthew there is the famous parable of the talents in which a wealthy man gives his servants sums of money expressed in talents. In fact, the terms translated into English as "bags" actually in the original Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew are referred to as "talents" and are clearly sums of money..

Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew: https://www.bibbiaedu.it/GRECO_NT/nt/Mt/25/

These payments were normally specified in terms of copper, but larger amounts could presumably be settled with silver bars or coins.

Although I remember seeing somewhere a payment order that specifies a payment of so much silver, or its equivalent in copper (with agio).

And yes, the Biblican talent is used to mean some value, which obviously assumes the reader understands what sort of talent was meant.

Ross G.

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #167 on: October 20, 2020, 05:48:07 pm »
On the Egyptian papyri the symbol of talent indicates sums of money BUT NOT ON COINS where perhaps it indicates the weight of not known what but still NOT WHAT DE LUCA THE HERETIC SAYS ...

The talent was a weight, not a sum of money. The value of a talent depended on what the talent was made of.

On the papyrus shown the talent symbol means a talent weight. The instruction is to pay the agent of Thewnos 4 talent (weights) of copper (xa(lkou)).

Ross G.


And how could he have paid if not with copper coins? Or could he pay for it with raw copper ingots? A little uncomfortable, isn't it? In chapter 24 of the Gospel of Matthew there is the famous parable of the talents in which a wealthy man gives his servants sums of money expressed in talents. In fact, the terms translated into English as "bags" actually in the original Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew are referred to as "talents" and are clearly sums of money..

Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew: https://www.bibbiaedu.it/GRECO_NT/nt/Mt/25/

These payments were normally specified in terms of copper, but larger amounts could presumably be settled with silver bars or coins.

Although I remember seeing somewhere a payment order that specifies a payment of so much silver, or its equivalent in copper (with agio).

And yes, the Biblican talent is used to mean some value, which obviously assumes the reader understands what sort of talent was meant.

Ross G.





The problem of Ptolemaic Egypt was the lack of silver for coinage which, therefore, was even less available in crude for trade between individuals. Precisely to make up for this lack of silver, gold and bronze coins were used and this is the reason why in the papyrus reproduced here we speak of 4 talents in bronze, obviously meaning bronze coins.

See: https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935390.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935390-e-71


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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #168 on: October 20, 2020, 05:57:08 pm »
Excuse me, another typo

Offline glebe

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #169 on: October 20, 2020, 07:27:37 pm »
On the Egyptian papyri the symbol of talent indicates sums of money BUT NOT ON COINS where perhaps it indicates the weight of not known what but still NOT WHAT DE LUCA THE HERETIC SAYS ...

The talent was a weight, not a sum of money. The value of a talent depended on what the talent was made of.

On the papyrus shown the talent symbol means a talent weight. The instruction is to pay the agent of Thewnos 4 talent (weights) of copper (xa(lkou)).

Ross G.


And how could he have paid if not with copper coins? Or could he pay for it with raw copper ingots? A little uncomfortable, isn't it? In chapter 24 of the Gospel of Matthew there is the famous parable of the talents in which a wealthy man gives his servants sums of money expressed in talents. In fact, the terms translated into English as "bags" actually in the original Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew are referred to as "talents" and are clearly sums of money..

Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew: https://www.bibbiaedu.it/GRECO_NT/nt/Mt/25/

These payments were normally specified in terms of copper, but larger amounts could presumably be settled with silver bars or coins.

Although I remember seeing somewhere a payment order that specifies a payment of so much silver, or its equivalent in copper (with agio).

And yes, the Biblican talent is used to mean some value, which obviously assumes the reader understands what sort of talent was meant.

Ross G.

The problem of Ptolemaic Egypt was the lack of silver for coinage which, therefore, was even less available in crude for trade between individuals. Precisely to make up for this lack of silver, gold and bronze coins were used and this is the reason why in the papyrus reproduced here we speak of 4 talents in bronze, obviously meaning bronze coins.

See: https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935390.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935390-e-71



OK, so pay 4 talents weight of bronze coins.

Ross G.

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2020, 12:45:11 am »
On the Egyptian papyri the symbol of talent indicates sums of money BUT NOT ON COINS where perhaps it indicates the weight of not known what but still NOT WHAT DE LUCA THE HERETIC SAYS ...

The talent was a weight, not a sum of money. The value of a talent depended on what the talent was made of.

On the papyrus shown the talent symbol means a talent weight. The instruction is to pay the agent of Thewnos 4 talent (weights) of copper (xa(lkou)).

Ross G.


And how could he have paid if not with copper coins? Or could he pay for it with raw copper ingots? A little uncomfortable, isn't it? In chapter 24 of the Gospel of Matthew there is the famous parable of the talents in which a wealthy man gives his servants sums of money expressed in talents. In fact, the terms translated into English as "bags" actually in the original Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew are referred to as "talents" and are clearly sums of money..

Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew: https://www.bibbiaedu.it/GRECO_NT/nt/Mt/25/

These payments were normally specified in terms of copper, but larger amounts could presumably be settled with silver bars or coins.

Although I remember seeing somewhere a payment order that specifies a payment of so much silver, or its equivalent in copper (with agio).

And yes, the Biblican talent is used to mean some value, which obviously assumes the reader understands what sort of talent was meant.

Ross G.

The problem of Ptolemaic Egypt was the lack of silver for coinage which, therefore, was even less available in crude for trade between individuals. Precisely to make up for this lack of silver, gold and bronze coins were used and this is the reason why in the papyrus reproduced here we speak of 4 talents in bronze, obviously meaning bronze coins.

See: https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935390.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935390-e-71



OK, so pay 4 talents weight of bronze coins.

Ross G.



If we talk about coins, their unit of measurement still remained the drachm. It was more convenient to count in drachms rather than by weight, especially as the silver coin was reduced in weight by Ptolemy I. The use of the ideal unit of talent as indicating the amount of 6,000 drachms and not their relative weight occurs in this inscription in which we find a symbol obtained from a  :Greek_Delta: (10 Attic) superimposed on a T (symbol of talent and therefore equivalent to 6,000 drahcms). It is an epigraph extensively studied and not invented by me which among other things gives us a good example of the way in which the Greeks expressed synthesized numbers by multiplying them, something on which I have long wanted to bring your attention. Thanks to those who are having the patience to read me.




Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #171 on: October 21, 2020, 01:40:32 am »
In the previous post  :Greek_Delta: is Attic 10 and not Ionic 4: it is a demonstration of the attention that must be paid in interpreting numerical notations

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #172 on: October 21, 2020, 02:18:46 pm »
...


The only thing astonishing is your stubbornness in criticizing me without bringing a shred of evidence to back up your claims



It's simple - the 'theory' is not believable. And for that, 'res ipsa loquitur'.

The real experts on ancient coin manufacturing here have demolished the 'theory' with facts, alternatives, explanations, etc. No worry - the 'theory' has the added advantage that it can't be disproved. The author seems to believe that non-believers must produce evidence the theory is mistaken, but that's exactly the wrong way 'round. Maybe not since the days of the ancient Greek philosophers, maybe just since the days of Karl Popper.

PtolemAE

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #173 on: October 21, 2020, 03:15:41 pm »


WORKSHOPS OR MINES
Author(s): Margaret Thompson
Source: Museum Notes (American Numismatic Society), Vol. 5 (1952), pp. 35-48
Published by: American Numismatic Society
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/43574067

Are the  letters under or around the amphora known as the second control of the NewStyle silver coinage referring to mines or workshops?

This 1952 paper comes down strongly on mines.

Not one mention of the possibility/implausibility of numerical quantities associated with minting control.

If one links the number of known obverses which have barely altered in the middle and late catalogue since NSSCA 1961, some of the 2nd controls are still in use but is it likely that the number minted is the same whether for 10, 47, 19, 2 or 0 obverses and multiply by the amphora letters makes the low obverses with a few reverses unlikely to reach huge figures.

Mines , I think, not workshops or numbers produced. I think it interesting that quantificationally minded numismatists like de Callatay and Meadows, and Lorber have not noticed your work on the Ptolemaic coins.

Regards,

John
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

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Re: Numerical notations on Ptolemy I Soter’s gold staters
« Reply #174 on: October 21, 2020, 04:32:14 pm »
Ok. Perfect. I stop here. I know that numismatists like Callatay and Meadows have not noticed my work but on a forum of enthusiasts, that is of people who love numismatics, I thought that it was possible to obtain at least a minimum and that is that in some cases on the coins there are suspicious signs that do not justify themselves as letters but that look like numbers, but I see that it is not possible.
I am amazed, extremely amazed. If I indicate with my hand to my friend who is next to me that there is a seagull on the horizon and my friend notes that that bird actually has the shape of a seagull, he will recognize it as such, I must not make it complicated scientific and philosophical demonstrations that that is a seagull.
How should I demonstrate you if not by showing you comparisons between coins and other sources, as I tried to do, that certain signs cannot be letters but only numbers because their shape is precisely that of numbers?
Once recognized as numbers you can discuss the function, adjust the shot but deny a priori always and in any case because no one has said it before, I seem to consciously decide that I do not want to give the satisfaction of having indicated this new topic. Not that I want such satisfaction but I believe that in this way numismatics is hurt because you decide not to take a new possible path. I thought it was possible at least to intrigue you, to make you recognize that that given sign was at least suspicious but there is no way to obtain this.
And this is simply incredible to me. I understood that this history of numbers has never been told by anyone, no great living numismatist has made it his own but I thought that this did not dull the ability to judge and discern anomalous forms from the usual Greek letters. But obviously I'm asking too much. Excuse me. Take away the trouble.

 

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