Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet  (Read 7843 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline *Alex

  • Tribunus Plebis 2022
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Etiam Iovis omnibus placere non possunt.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2020, 10:01:13 am »
 This is a part of the book clasp 11-13 BB       http://donovedenie.ru/blog/amulet_mechik_ili_shpenjok_drevnej_knigi/2014-09-25-471

Thank you Aleksanr B for clearing that up. Now that you have shown and explained what these really are, it makes perfect sense.
I have written your explanation in English below.

The author of the lot below named this item a sword amulet. That is, stylistically, the object was like an ancient sword. (see photo No.1)
However, according to archaeologists and historians, this item is actually a peg from an ancient book (possibly pre-Mongol time), that is, part of the fastener. (see photo No.2)
In addition, it became clear that until the 17th century the pegs were without holes for their fitting. Most likely, a small hole was drilled in a wooden wrapping around the book and the peg was driven in.
The clasp of an ancient book consists of two parts: a peg and the loop itself. Photo No.3, from the exposition of the Kiev Museum, shows examples of loop hooks and pegs.

Alex.


Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12102
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2020, 10:36:10 am »
Hmm, maybe? I don't really know the history of books, but I am under the impression ancient books were all scrolls.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2020, 10:47:08 am »
They are not ancient.  The part with the round and rectangular loops is well known as a medieval book-related item.  They are found all across Europe.  I had not realized that the "dagger" part was associated with them.

Not entirely clear how they work.  The round bit appears to be tied to the end of a fabric book mark, which wraps around the rectangular loop.  The dagger part has a hole.  It appears to be fastened to either the inner cover of the book or to a separate book holder.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline *Alex

  • Tribunus Plebis 2022
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Etiam Iovis omnibus placere non possunt.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 11:05:18 am »
Hmm, maybe? I don't really know the history of books, but I am under the impression ancient books were all scrolls.

Estimated  at 1,693 years old and considered to be some of the oldest surviving bound books – 13 leather bound papyrus codices were discovered in 1945, buried inside a sealed jar, by a local man in the town of Nag Hammadi in Upper Egypt.
The books, containing Gnostic texts, are dated from around the first half of the 4th century AD. Written in the Coptic language, the codices are thought to have been copied from Greek.
The Nag Hammadi codices can currently be found at the Coptic Museum in Cairo, Egypt.

So bound books do seem to have existed towards the end of the Roman Empire but I can't imagine that they were very common. Certainly as far as I am aware all the books that have so far been found in Pompeii were scrolls, but that was in the first century. I am sure that during the ensuing centuries of The Roman Empire, a new thing like a bound book could easily have been invented or discovered.

Not that any of the above has anything to do with these "gladius" pins, That's a different story.  :P  ;D

Alex

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12102
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2020, 04:29:47 pm »
This thread is certainly taking some interesting twists and turns.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2020, 05:09:53 pm »
These are confirmed as metal pegs from Byzantine medieval peg-and-strap bookbindings.

They are described and illustrated in J.A. Szirmai's The Archaeology of Medieval Bookbinding, e.g. in figure 6.15.  I can't find an online version of the book, but you can read and see parts on Google Books. 

Szirmai notes that these are often mis-identified as amulets or other items, but have been found in the proper context in archaeological excavations near Kiev and in Crimea.  They date from 11th to 12the century and perhaps later.

SC



SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2020, 05:17:43 pm »
I've followed this with great interest.  Thanks everyone

Offline v-drome

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2020, 10:16:21 pm »
Earlier in this thread I posted a similar, but different, looking object.  Can I still assume that this one was probably the foot of a small box?  Also I wonder if the "book clasp" could have been used on other types of closures.  It looks very functional even to modern standards!

Jimi

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2020, 09:24:42 am »
I think yours is still a foo from a small box or casket.

The book clasps all appear to have a hole to fasten it to the cover, yours doesn't.

The spike/blade of the book clasps appears in the centre, with a small lip all around, yours is to one side with a clear shelf or ledge formed.

Your knob is clearly a simplified paw.

SC

SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Jarle D

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2020, 08:50:15 am »
This is super interesting, thank you all for the contributions. It's cool to finally have a likely explanation as to what these objects are. Since winter, I have sadly seen many objects of the same type being incorrectly sold as legionary/gladiator/gladius amulets in auctions. I sent a mail to one dealer about it, but never got a response. Armed with new knowledge, I will link to this thread if I find any other lots being incorrectly described.

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2020, 03:30:38 pm »
Good luck with your noble cause Jarle.  I suspect that you won't get many replies or thanks yous because you will be sending them bad news.  Instead of a Gladiator amulet - value high - you will be proving it is a medieval book-binding peg - value not-so-high.....

There are many dealers, especially on flea-bay, that like to add gladiator, legionary, etc. in front of everything.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity