Gorgoneion / Horse forepart obol, Asia Minor

[archivum]

Another curious and mysterious Gorgoneion, AR 10, .60 g, very dubiously associated with Kelenderis, Gorgoneion / Half-Pegasus (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6252214); any better leads, anyone?

[shanxi]

The reason for the attribution seems to be the similarity of the gorgon with other types attributed to Kelenderis.

The similiarity is there, but it's not realy a strong argument:

with Pegasos:
http://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=6190
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=642113

with forepart of a horse:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6252214
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3360263

[archivum]

Thanks, Shanxi; my thought as well -- the Gorgoneion makes sense with Half-Pegasus from virtually any mint, since the death of Medusa yields both, but Half-Horse makes less sense, above all from a mint that is mainly associated with goats and peculiar dismounters!

 

[archivum]

Bump

[Altamura]

I agree with these arguments (if this is among the reactions you want to provoce with your "bump"  ).

The version with the pegasos seems always to be given to Kelenderis, the horse is mostly attributed with caution.

Regards

Altamura

[archivum]

Thanks for this, Altamura. Gorgoneion obverses are common throughout Greek antiquity (see esp. https://www.gorgonemedusa.com/); I'm intrigued by the various ways local reverses distinguish their mints, and the reasons behind these distinguishing features where we can establish them. The reasons for featuring a Pegasos forepart are rarely the same as the reasons for featuring an everyday horse; I was wondering if someone here wanted to claim this horse-forepart reverse for another, more appropriate Asia Minor mint.

[shanxi]

The Gorgon/horse combination is also found on coins of Samaria.

e.g.: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=321755

Thre are also several examples showing the forepart of a horse (without Gorgon)

But unfortunatelly the style of the Gorgon is different

[Joe Sermarini]

I may have read somewhere that the attribution to Kelenderis is also based on find locations, but I don't know where I might have read it and I could be completely wrong.

[archivum]

Thanks to all; I’ll file this “Asia Minor, Uncertain” for now.

[Kelvin H]

I dont know much about the coin but just wanted to say it looks like a really nice one.

[archivum]

Thanks for that! Interesting that the style's also different in several subtle ways even from the Kelenderis specimens.

[esnible]

Hermann Weber first attributed the crude variant of this type to Kelenderis (“On some unpublished or rare Greek coins in my collection”, Numismatic Chronicle (1896), p. 27).  His attribution hasn’t been universally accepted; Nils Breitenstein classed the type with the uncertains (SNG Copenhagen: Cyprus Etc. (1956), pl. 11 #405).  Leonard Forrer’s catalog of Weber’s collection a note says “Sir H. Weber notes against this coin: ‘Dr. Imhoof says, indubitably Kelenderis’.” (The Weber collection: Greek coins vol. 3 (1926) #7522).  Jean Delepierre suggests they might be barbaric imitations. (Jean Delepierre and co-editors, SNG Delepierre (1983)).

Barclay Head classed it with the Athenian Wappenmünzen and attributed it to Etruria! (BMC Central Greece (1884), p. 123, pl. 23 #8)

There is no border between the horse forepart and the edge of the die, which causes the horse to appear to be leaping into the incuse square.  This is hard to see on most specimens.

Weber put it with the gorgon/Pegasos obol type, and in his 1896 article he claims to see a faint ΚΕΛ, his gorgon/pegasos coin reappeared in SNG Lockett without such a claim.

I have a coin that appeared in a 1990s auction that has not been published that seems to link by style this type and the gorgoneion/pegasos type that everyone says is from Kelenderis.  However, the only evidence I know of for the pegasos type is the inscription that only Weber could see.

There are gorgon/knucklebone fractions and gorgon/goat bronzes with ΚΕΛ or ΚΕ inscriptions, but they don't match the gorgon/horse or gorgon/pegasos by style so aren't particularly helpful.

[archivum]

Belated thanks, Ed, for this very informative history -- still Uncertain, but now richly documented.

[archivum]

Related enigma -- this one, 10mm, .62g, with a rare counterpart at https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=136919 (very close to Weber 7122 *; 7121 is the horse!) and a more distant analogue at https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=243367 (further posting at https://www.gorgonemedusa.com/la-monetazione/asia-minore/cilicia-uncertain/):

    * http://people.virginia.edu/~jdk3t/WeberPlates/Weber270.html

[esnible]

I suspect Mallos for your coin, not Kelenderis.

I am basing that on style and maybe on Fabric.  Compare:

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/numismatiknaumann/browse?a=59&l=47479 (Mallos; as proven by the inscription)
http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.54099 Mallos
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/zeusnumismatics/browse?a=1144&l=1219766 (Supposedly Samaria, which has a published gorgon/gorgon; but style matches the above)

[archivum]

Agreed, Ed, especially since early Mallos fractions routinely change up their reverses. The non-figural reverse is surprising, though.

[archivum]

This one really does seem to be the "Kelenderis" type, 8mm, .66g; any thoughts about why the reverse die treats Pegasos' nose as it does?

[archivum]

This Kelenderis hemiobol, 7.5mm, .29g, Pegasos forepart r. / Goat forepart l. looking back, KEL (cf. SNG Berry 1266, the sole specimen thus noted in Isegrim), may shed light on a mystery or two in the preceding posts. Curl-winged Pegasos often, as here, has his wing only sketchily shown, so it may not be utterly missing from the die for the first coin above; as for Pegasos' nose, there may be an attempt to show him breathing heavily, as here again.

[esnible]

Could they just be die breaks?  I have two of these in my collection.  The type is almost always found with reverse die breaks or struck with die shift.

This obol was published as SNG Levante 247.  The reverse doesn't have die cracks but even in this state of preservation it looks poorly struck.

archivum, are you sure that is a goat and not a swan?

[archivum]

Thanks again for your thoughts, Ed. I think this one does feature a goat looking back, with the horn dimly visible. (BTW, it may be a whole goat, not, as usual, a forepart.) The K E is also distinct, so at least the hemiobol is definitely a Kelenderis issue. I agree the reverses are often not very well struck, but the horses' mouths seem to involve extra features almost as a matter of course, whence the thought that they're meant to depict heavy breathing or snorting.

[esnible]

Could they be die breaks?  I lined up four specimens from the BnF.  They aren't from the same die, but they show the abuse the dies suffered at the mint.

Die shift
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85018360.r=Incertain%20obol?rk=1845502;4

Deterioration in the fields
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8501832b.r=Incertain%20obol?rk=3583708;4

Die breaks
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8501833r.r=Incertain%20obol?rk=3519330;4

Severe die breaks
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85018345.r=Incertain%20obol?rk=1866962;0

I have also attached something I haven't shown publicly before, a gorgon/horse hemiobol.  This is an unpublished denomination.  The gorgon/Pegasos type is known in both denominations, but this shows the horse was also featured on a hemiobol.  It features none of the die breaks and cracks.  The forelegs also look like real horse forelegs, without that weird "elbow" seen on many of the obols.

[archivum]

Thanks for sharing these, Ed; yes, those obol reverse dies were a mess! Sheer coincidence then that a couple of mine looked especially wild at the horse's mouth. That non-figural-seeming reverse may be shattered-die product as well; if you squint, you can see a horse-leg or too. That rare hemiobol's really a beauty.