12th Century Trachea & Tetartera

[glebe]

But on with the motley...

I have just noticed something very odd. One almost universal feature of Byzantine coins through the centuries is that the reverse is normally inverted, at least on official coins.

Now according to CLBC the reverse of the Alexius I tetarteron SBCV 1931 is inverted as usual, and their drawing shows this, but if you bring up this type on acsearch it seems that in almost all cases the reverse is upright.

Does this mean this type is all (or mostly) imitative?

Ross G.

[Catalin N]

Did not notice this aspect before. I have just one 1931, which is inverted. Simon will now look through his box of 1931s...

[glebe]

I have further modified Table II to better reflect the weight reductions of the tets and half-tets over Manuel I's reign (basically following CLBC).

Ross G.

[Catalin N]

Two SBCV 1933 hit the market lately, both misattributed.

One was lot 2209 of Savoca's 85th Blue Auction. At least two persons knew what it was and wanted it. Sold for 75 EUR + fees. Weight is 3.25 grams.

I assume the second went under the radar, because I got it for 21 USD shipped "buy it now" on Ebay. Item no. 284019237493. Weight is 5.47 grams

[Pekka K]

This was shown privately, but may be of interest here.
Looks like imitative obverse of SBCV 1975, with reverse
from anonymous follis Cl I.

Weight 4 gr.

Pekka K

[Catalin N]

I believe that is SBCV 2157.

[Pekka K]

Yes, looks like it.

Thank you.

Pekka K

[glebe]

Two SBCV 1933 hit the market lately, both misattributed.

One was lot 2209 of Savoca's 85th Blue Auction. At least two persons knew what it was and wanted it. Sold for 75 EUR + fees. Weight is 3.25 grams.

I assume the second went under the radar, because I got it for 21 USD shipped "buy it now" on Ebay. Item no. 284019237493. Weight is 5.47 grams

Noted.

It seems most examples of this type are clipped to some degree, except perhaps for the (heavily patinated) Ebay coin.

Ross G.

[Simon]

Two SBCV 1933 hit the market lately, both misattributed.

One was lot 2209 of Savoca's 85th Blue Auction. At least two persons knew what it was and wanted it. Sold for 75 EUR + fees. Weight is 3.25 grams.

I assume the second went under the radar, because I got it for 21 USD shipped "buy it now" on Ebay. Item no. 284019237493. Weight is 5.47 grams

Noted.

It seems most examples of this type are clipped to some degree, except perhaps for the (heavily patinated) Ebay coin.

Ross G.

SBCV-1933 is awful early to be considered for clipping Ross. The biggest issue around this coin is the huge variation in weights.  In fact Sear lists it as a full tetarteron and Sommer as a half.  My personal observation is most of these coins are coming from Cyprus, we know Isaac Comnenus of Cyprus minted there , perhaps another mint of Alexius was there?

I have several examples, none show signs of being clipped. My smallest is on a super thin flan, weighing very little. However as noted in this post examples pass 6gm.

Example one.

Size 21/12mm
Weight 1.3gm

Example 2

Size 21.94
Weight 3.6

[Catalin N]

It seems most examples of this type are clipped to some degree, except perhaps for the (heavily patinated) Ebay coin.

I also doubt the clipping; the two I indicated are not clipped, and neither those of Simon.

[glebe]

The problem is that the average weights of most of the Thessalonican tetartera types of Alexius (as we now have them) are, to various degrees, below par (i.e, below 3.9 gm).

So where has that weight gone and when did it go? Was it perhaps creamed off by small time clippers as a nice little earner - bronze isn't a precious metal but it is still a reasonably valuable commodity. Small beer perhaps, but still better than nothing.

S.1932 & 1934 are perhaps a separate question – these types have clearly been cut down (or less plausibly, struck on small flans) and now average around 2 gm, and so maybe they were used as half Tets.

Ross G.

[Simon]

Sbcv-1932 and SBCV-1934 are both listed as half tetartera by all catalogs.  In regards to SBCV-1932 the coin was heavily imitated as late as the 13th century, that will really screw up the weights. Problem is it is very difficult to differentiate a poorly struck official issue from the imitations.

SBCV-1934 only just started coming to the market in the last 10 years , before that it was considered very rare, this coin also seems to come from Cyprus dealers.

As for clipping coins during this time it was death penalty offense, why would someone risk their life  over a little bronze unless it was done at a later date when coins were being clipped. You had mentioned before the half tetarteron Of Alexius III was clipped, I objected because we cant prove it, not enough examples to really prove it. My example as well as others I have seen are on a oval flan.  I could be wrong but  I have always thought the clipping of the trachea was done during Latin rule when the empire was poor and the coins were smaller.

One note to point out is the half tetarteron of Alexius III in Constantinople was vaguely listed by Hendy as a billion coin, I do not see any tests on the coin to prove that but it would be interesting because clipped trachea were billion , this would fit into the theory of it being clipped but to lower its value or make new coinage?

Simon

[glebe]

Yes, the “Thessalonican” Tets of Alexius I are tricky, and I have now reviewed and revised my Table I, trying to separate out the official and imitative types.

On the whole it seems that most of the Tet types, even the official ones, generally average significantly below 3.9 gm.

S.1932 is actually listed as a full Tet in Sear and CLBC. It comes primarily in two main styles – a finer style (DOC 45a) and a chunkier, more compact style, which I take to be DOC 45b. (This last is in fact the type shown as CLBC 2.4.8 ).

DOC 45a comes mainly unclipped, averaging around 2.2 gm, while Doc 45b is normally heavily clipped to around 1.1 gm. So it’s certainly tempting to rate 45a as a half-Tet, although this assumes of course a Tet standard of c.4 gm, which, as I said above, seems a bit heavy for most Alexius I types.

Ross G.

[Simon]

I did not see the descrapacy before.

Here is Doc description.

ALEXIUS AE HALF TETARTERON S-1932 DOC 45 CLBC 2.4.8

OBV Patriarchal cross on two steps.

REV Bust of emperor wearing stemma divitision and jeweled loros and in r. hand holding jeweled scepter and in l. Globus cruciger.

Size 15.81mm

Weight 2.0gm

DOC lists 42 examples with weights ranging from .59gm to 3.22gm and sizes ranging from 13mm to 18mm

I am traveling ,but Sear was based on Hendys 1969 work. I think we have another example of various weights for one issue. What is the heavy end for CLBC?

Clbc used die sizes to determine 1/2 or whole tetarteron. Also the Doc could have included imitation tet as we discussed before.

Simon

[glebe]

CLBC copies DOC's 3.22 gm for the heavy end of S.1932.

They note the heavy clipping(?) on some examples, but fail to separate DOC 45a from 45b.

Ross G.

[glebe]

I have made some significant changes to the Weight Tables above, regarding Alexius I (various types) and Alexius III (S.2014/2014a).

Remember that you can save off the Tables to get clearer images that can be adjusted for size.

Ross G.

[Catalin N]

I got this month on Ebay 2 x S.1934, 1.99 gr and 1.15 gr. Although shipped from UK, these come from Cyprus. They are clipped obviously. Noted that many of the coins sold from Cyprus are clipped, including the anonymous folles, which are sometimes reduced to the size of a tetarteron. On Ebay I noted this mostly for coins sold by Cyprus-linked sellers. Is there anything specific that happened in Cyprus and that I am missing?

I am surprised that you had a small sample for S.1953; saw it quite often lately; did not expect to be rare. I have two - 2.86 gr and 4.1 gr. There is one now on Ebay, 2.63 gr.

Edit:/ Can you add the Pb tetartera of Alexius, DOC IV 37, 32 and 42, for completeness? We could find a few examples, in this order, probably. At least 37, there were (still are?) 3 pieces on Ebay, for a price I was not willing to pay.

[glebe]

I accept CLBC's opinion that the lead tetartera are probably one-off tokens, which means they are not coins in the usual sense although they do have some monetary value.

And while they do seem to be struck to a definite standard I omit them (for the moment) as I can't see any obvious relation between their standard and that of the regular bronze types.

Ross G.

[glebe]

A quick look at the lead "tetartera" yields a mean weight of 4.7 gm and a median of 4.4 gm.

Evidently the sample is not very Gaussian, so these figures must be treated with caution, but nonetheless they suggest that the weight standard was supposed to be 4.5 gm, i.e, 1/6 of an ounce, the weight of the solidus.

What the nominal value of these things was I can't say - a billon/copper tetarteron would seem  the most obvious possibility, but is this a reasonable value for a handout token (if that's what they are)?

Ross G.

[Catalin N]

Also a quick look on DOC 37, for a cross-referencing:

[glebe]

I lumped all three types together in my figures - hence the slightly different averages.

Ross G.

[Simon]

A quick look at the lead "tetartera" yields a mean weight of 4.7 gm and a median of 4.4 gm.

Evidently the sample is not very Gaussian, so these figures must be treated with caution, but nonetheless they suggest that the weight standard was supposed to be 4.5 gm, i.e, 1/6 of an ounce, the weight of the solidus.

What the nominal value of these things was I can't say - a billon/copper tetarteron would seem  the most obvious possibility, but is this a reasonable value for a handout token (if that's what they are)?

Ross G.

I am not certain either Ross but Hendy placed them because of the coronation of John II and the coin reform.  Nothing I know of was written about the lead coins being issued. Alexius had many critics over the coin reform but that was over the use of mixed metal coins, EG. El Aspron trachy, Billion trachy and the city minted tetarteron and I am sure someone would have brought up lead coins as a complaint but I have seen nothing.

However it does fit the narrative, we do know their was a huge shortage of copper , to such an existent that Alexius had public statues melted to make currency. Their was another case of an emperor making lead coinage to replace other metal was  Maurice Tiberius who ruled 582-602. So it had been done before but I expect since it was a coronation it must have been a party occasion , they might have been the equivalent to Marti gras beads, not currency.

I have three more not on either of my collection galleries of Forum. They are all in only VG/poor  condition but the are attributable as Thessalonica issues ( Full Figure.)  3.6gm , 7.6gm and 5.6 gm I bought these from one Ebay seller unattributed  well over a decade ago so the weights are not included in your study.

Forum might have info in their sold coins section as well. I know Joe had a small group or hoard of CLBC 2.5.1, in fact his offering was the only  offering I had seen before. My example was not his best, the best sold before I saw them.

Simon