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Author Topic: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?  (Read 1017 times)

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Offline lv88

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Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« on: March 29, 2020, 05:43:34 pm »
Last one I am asking for some help.

Byzantine lead seal of John protospatharios and in charge of the horses and mules of west Asia Minor (ca 750-850)

 

Obv.: Cruciform monogram ΘEOTOKЄ BOHΘЄI; in angles, [Tω] - C[ω] / Δ૪-Λω = Θεοτόκε, βοήθει τῷ σῷ δούλῳ (Mother of God, help your servant), wreath border patrially existing.

 
Rev. Inscription in four lines, +IΩA[NNH]/A'CΠAΘ[, S Λ]/OΓOΘ, TΩ[N]/AΓЄΛω[N] = + Ἰωάννῃ πρωτοσπαθαρίῳ καὶ λογοθέτῃ τῶν ἀγελῶν (Johh protospatharios and logothetes of the Herds).

Offline pogh_poor

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2020, 09:28:46 am »
Your solution doesn't seem to match.  The seal you show has two  :Greek_Kappa: and no  :Greek_Iota:  :Greek_omega_small:  :Greek_Alpha:   I don't see the Ioannes unless a line is missing.  Here is an example of Ioannes, protospatharios and logothetes of the Herds, that seems to match your solution.  Pogh_poor
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Offline Gert

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2020, 03:32:03 am »
Yes, those are two different seals. They are both struck on a blank that is far too small for the dies, leaving much detail off flan. Your seal belongs to a strategos of the Anatolikon theme (province). His name is in the first line, but that is missing. I also can't make sense of the last line. The invocative monogram on the obv. is also incomplete.
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Gert

Offline iolkia

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2020, 07:40:05 am »

I think the  reading after ANΑΤΟΛ' is "ΚΑΙ ΔΟΥΚΙ". It's a pity we can't read the name of the owner. If you have the necessary bibliography try to find out the names of the officers who served with these titles in the theme of the anatolikoi.

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Iolkia


Offline Gert

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2020, 09:53:18 am »
Looking in Zacos/Veglery, all seals of strategoi of Anatolikon list it as the last office. For good reason, because you can't get much higher an office than that. If your seal's owner would have been a doux, I think he would probably have mentioned it before strategos. In fact, I could not find seals which combine the titles of doux and strategos (which of course doesn't mean they don't exist). So I would propose another reading for the last line:

ATOΛ’K S
[B ]OVK’[Λ]

So strategos of the Anatolikon and Boukellarion themes. I could find no seals combining these offices either but they are bordering themes and the placing in the legend would make sense.
Regards
Gert

Offline iolkia

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2020, 10:10:54 am »

This is true. Doux should stand first.

I think your proposal could be correct. It makes sense and I can read the remnants of the "S".
I shall search for a strategos of the two themata.

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Iolkia

Offline iolkia

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2020, 04:25:19 pm »

Dear board

Un update and some thoughts on this elusive seal.

As Gert pointed out, there exist no seals that combine the titles of doux and strategos of Anatolikoi.
A I found out, this is because of the simple fact that at some time the title of doux replaced the office of strategos of Anatolikoi.

On the other hand, I wasn't able to find a seal mentioning a strategos of both the themata of Anatolikoi and Boukellarion. (which doesn't mean they can't exist of course).

Now looking again at the seal, I observe that in the space before the "O" at the bottom line there are not traces of a "B" leading to the word "Boukellarion" as proposed by Gert.

At this point I would be tempted to argue that the last word could  after all be "Doukas",  refering to the last name of the owner (there could be a diagonal line of a "Δ" before the "O") if we dismiss the "S" as a flaw, but then again the abbreviating comma after the "K" doesn't make sense. The engraver had enough space to write the whole name.

Another mystery...

Regards
Iolkia

Offline Gert

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2020, 04:56:35 am »
It is always frustrating to have a fragmentary legend with no parallels found. I think we can dismiss a family name for the palaeographical reasons you mentioned (the S and abbreviation), but also because the dative definite article TW is lacking and because of convention. Family names start to appear in the 10th century. In this period they are practically unknown.

As for the option of doux: he can conceivably have been strategos of Anatolikon and doux of another command.

Regards
Gert

Offline lv88

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Re: Byzantine Seal John protospatharios ? [Correction Artavasdos]
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2020, 08:41:13 pm »
All,

Thank you for the suggestions. Gert - I also scoured the fantastic selections you have sold on vcoins with descriptions
I have been messing around researching this particular seal.
   ....
...OCTPA...
W TWN A...
...ATOΛIK..
OVK


One suggestion I came up with is [ARTAVACΔ]OC based on two seals at the Dumbarton Oaks collection.
The both seem to have different and incomplete inscriptions due to the size of the boulloterion...



https://www.doaks.org/resources/seals/byzantine-seals/BZS.1951.31.5.2408

https://www.doaks.org/resources/seals/byzantine-seals/BZS.1958.106.3020

Thoughts appreciated.

 

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