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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Ephesus fake 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Ephesus fake  (Read 306 times)
Charles M
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« on: March 25, 2020, 08:06:17 pm »

I may break some rules here but here goes.  The following coin popped up in one of my searches as a coin of Elagabalus or Caracalla.

It's in no standard reference for Ephesus including Karwiese for either ruler.  It's medallion size, 35 mm and 20+ grams.  Hmmm--unpublished??

Then this coin pops up for Caracalla today by a different seller in a different country, similar size.

Hmm- exactly same offset on the flan for both coins.  So I checked the NFSL here on FORUM and both sellers are on it, one of them just reported by okidoki a few days ago.

So just for fun I did an acsearch and found this coin that sold last July by a reputable dealer with a provenance that went back 10 years to another reputable dealer.

So my question is, are all 3 fakes?  These are all good looking coins with appropriate weights for diameter.
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Charles M
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2020, 08:07:42 pm »

Sorry--I thought I had placed the coins within the text but it didn't work.  The order from top to bottom coin is correct.
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2020, 08:53:15 pm »

You posted them as attachments which is the correct way to post.

They appear to be cast fakes from the same mold.
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 11:17:05 pm »

Here is one more from Acsearch, not sure if it is the same, but maybe very similar?

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=814774
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shanxi
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2020, 02:27:01 am »

Similar flan shape,  but not from the same casting mold, e.g. less space below the temples.

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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2020, 02:38:54 am »

The last coin is likely the prototype (or an unaltered cast thereof), which explains why the other cast forgeries look so horribly tooled: the forgers decided to add details manually to their casting mould which were missing on the original due to wear.

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Altamura
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2020, 02:43:42 am »

There are also more severe differences:

On the acsearch coin you read on the obverse MAGNHTWN KE EFESIWN OMONOIA, on the coins presented here it is NEOKORWN KE EFESIWN OMONOIA. You don't see with wich city the homonoia has been.
The legend on the obverse is also slightly different.

The acsearch coin can also be found in BMC Ionia, page 174 number 106: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101064003526&view=image&seq=250
In the acsearch link there are also two further references, perhaps someone has access to these.

So probably there has been a spelling error during the fake production  Smiley.

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Altamura
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Din X
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2020, 03:17:12 am »

I know them for long and have one, too. ^^
Mine is picture 1
Picture 2 another cast
Picture 3 authentic mother
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Altamura
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2020, 04:09:03 am »

If picture 3 is authentic, do you have a reference for it? Where did you find it?

There is also the legend with NEOKORWN on it  Undecided.

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Altamura
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Din X
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2020, 05:03:24 am »

EPHESOS
218 - 222 n. Chr.
AE (26,70 g.), Vs.: ΑΥΤ Κ Α Μ ΑΝΤΩΝΕΙΝΟΣ, Bste mit Panzer, Paludamentum und Lorbeerkranz r. Rs.: ΝΕΟΚΟΡΩΝ ΚΕ ΕΦΕΣΙΩΝ / ΟΜΟΝΟΙΑ, zwei gegenberstehende Tempel in Dreiviertelansicht. Der linke mit dem Kultbild der Artemis von Ephesos, der rechte mit dem der Kore von Sardeis(?). SNG Mnchen - ; Franke-Noll - ; Mionnet - ; SNG Cop. - ; SNG Leypold - ; SNG Aul. - ; BMC - ; SNG Hunter - .

If you put  the number of picture 749753 to or better after the acsearch link you can find the coin

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=

This works always with coins on acsearch because the name of pictures if you save them is their inventory number of this picture and  and the last part of their links.

The patina looks ok on this one and the patina counts if it comes to bronze coins. (Patina looks ok as far as this can be said based on this pictures of this quality).
Authentic does not mean that the surface of the mother must be untouched.
If mother was smoothed or tooled is very diffucult to tell based on such bad pictures so I will not do.
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2020, 07:19:20 am »

Fake coin reports please.
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Charles M
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 08:17:48 am »


I'll be glad to do the fake coin report.  Can you point me to the correct place to do that---I'm not sure where or how.



This kind of thing really makes me nervous.  I know fakes have been around since the beginning of coinage.  But how's a collector of average means like me supposed to be able to discern the difference.  I know the conventional wisdom is to only buy from dealers you trust and I do that but the third coin above in my original post was sold last July by Bertolami and 10 years prior to that by Gorny & Mosch, both of whom have a good reputation. 


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Charles M
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 09:46:10 am »

I have added this coin to the fake coin report section.  Corrections or additions welcomed.

I believe Altamura is correct.  The mother coin was probably BMC Ionia 106 since it includes the cooperating city (Magnesia).  All the coins with the NEOKOPWN in the reverse legend are fake.  It would make no sense  to have NEOKOPWN  on a "Homonoia" coin.  Please correct me if my logic is faulty.

Charles M.
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Din X
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 12:40:22 pm »

I have added this coin to the fake coin report section.  Corrections or additions welcomed.

I believe Altamura is correct.  The mother coin was probably BMC Ionia 106 since it includes the cooperating city (Magnesia).  All the coins with the NEOKOPWN in the reverse legend are fake.  It would make no sense  to have NEOKOPWN  on a "Homonoia" coin.  Please correct me if my logic is faulty.

Charles M.

That they are fakes from modern hand cut dies is very very unlikely.
They are all cast fakes except the mother.

If they would be fakes from modern hand cut dies, I would expect many struck or pressed fakes from these dies and not ONLY one mother and ALL others CAST fakes made from imprint of this mother.

Does it really make sense that someone cut by hands a die and then produce only one fake ?
(This is very unlikely to cut a die to produce only one cheap coin (fake), this makes only sense for very very expensive coins)
The first one was sold more than 10 years ago and after this cast fakes of this coin appeared on the market.
And the patina of the imho authentic mother looks natural and convincing and not like this artificial Bulgarian patinas.

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Altamura
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2020, 05:22:17 am »

The problem I have with your authentic mother (this one:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=749753  isn't it?) is the legend.

I am not an expert in provincial coins, but on homonoia coins (those about the unity between two cities) you very often have a legend with this structure: <city1> <KAI or KE or K or nothing> <city2> OMONOIA <perhaps some more letters>.
This can be seen e.g. by searching in Isegrim for coins with OMONOIA on the reverse.

There is no legend structure NEOKORWN <KAI or KE or K or nothing> <city> OMONOIA in Isegrim.

Besides of that in my eyes it would not make sense to depict the main deities of two cities, Artemis Ephesia from Ephesos and another one, in their temple and then naming only one of these cities in the legend.

I am really no expert in Greek imperials, but in my eyes a coin with ΝΕΟΚΟΡΩΝ ΚΕ ΕΦΕΣΙΩΝ / ΟΜΟΝΟΙΑ is suspect to be not authentic  Undecided.

Regards

Altamura

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Charles M
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2020, 07:54:18 am »

I agree completely Altamura but  I don't think that Gorny & Mosch coin (in your post above) was the mother coin--I think it is fake also.  The mother coin may not be illustrated anywhere but it would have been the coin with the correct reverse legend.  Perhaps it wasn't clear so the forger retooled the cast die and changed the legend

To Din X's point:  I certainly did not mean to imply there's only one fake---at least of 5 or 6 are illustrated above in preceding posts--I think there are a lot more out there.  As I said above I believe the fakes are cast.

By the way, the first coin in my original post just sold for about $50.  It was sold by ebay seller ancientground who is on the NFSL here on FORVM.  My guess is he has several of these stashed back and is selling one every few months.  The second coin in my original post is listed for a starting bid of $379 with no bids yet and is listed by NFSL seller lolita.b-55.  The scientific term for these types of sellers is scumbag.

Charles M.
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Altamura
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2020, 08:58:43 am »

... but  I don't think that Gorny & Mosch coin (in your post above) was the mother coin--I think it is fake also.  ...
Me too  Smiley. I just linked it to be sure that this is the one Din X calls "mother coin". It has also ΝΕΟΚΟΡΩΝ and so I think it is not authentic.

Regards

Altamura
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Din X
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2020, 10:40:03 am »

As written before in previous post the mother could well be tooled and smoothed and the legend and other details modified but this is hard to tell form pictures, but surface does not look untouched on Gorny piece.

And then with imprints of the mother (Gorny) cast fakes were created.


To change (tool) details on a coin is imho muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch easier and so much likelier than in a mould.

On coins you can only remove with tooling material, on an imprint (castin mould) you can of course add material and so you can make much huger modifications (but you need experience, skills and right tools etc.).

I think this can not be solved without having better pictures of the Gorny piece, to see the patina better and if the coin was tooled.

For some here an authentic coin with ΝΕΟΚΟΡΩΝ can not exist, for me it is possible, it can be either an authentic coin with tooled details or possibly an authentic  coin with an unexected legend and depiction (only because something is different than usual or expected neednt mean it must be fake).

One good argument is, that if something is so different and unusual it even speaks for authentcity because forgers try to get their fakes as close to real coins as possible with so little differences as possible. Coins that are different than usual will be checked more often and more carefully. IF you make such a legend you must expect that this coin could rather rise some suspicions and will be checked more carefully that a coin with a usual legend.


For me a fake coin with the Gorny patina can not exist because patina looks authentic and only authentic coins can have authentic patina so it must be authentic.

If it comes to bronze coins I only go for patina and this as far as I know the only reliable way to athenticate them.


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« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 09:09:17 am »

I have come late to this present conversation, but I had thought that this "coin"
was discussed several years ago. The verdict was in, these are all fakes!

In any case, the only genuine coin is the one shown by v-drome, with ACSearch
image number 814774 (ex Helios).

I know this, because I own it! I have examined it, as have several experts.

The fakes have filtered out, based apparently on this original, for some years.
Each time I see one I try to inform the vendor, with varying levels of success.
These even have their own WildWinds entry (see below).

The fakes fail to capture the original in most ways, not the least with the clear
and rather obvious legend errors (pointed out by Altamura and Charles M).

All the best, and stay safe and well in these "interesting" times,

- Walter


Original discussion (2011):
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=75426.0

also:
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/caracalla/_magnesia_Schultz_169_FAKE.txt

and another example:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-15205
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