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Author Topic: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins  (Read 2268 times)

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Offline FEDERICO D

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Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« on: November 15, 2019, 05:29:42 pm »
On some Greek coins images are depicted for the specific purpose of confusing the normal perceptive procedure of the observer to whom contradictory signals are sent which generate a real short circuit in the assignment of definitive borders to the examined forms. A quick review of some of these images that constitute real visual paradoxes.


https://www.academia.edu/40940601/F._De_Luca_Paradossi_visivi_su_monete_greche_Comunicazione_Bollettino_della_Societ%C3%A0_Numismatica_Italiana_n.74_Autunno_2019_pagg.5-10?fbclid=IwAR0TGLhJBJuKQWsUCfNiC7zVqoBT6WNMMTkLeBB6Y6AuUU1f2lns-1eKlOc

Offline JBF

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2019, 09:10:41 pm »
"confusing the normal perspective procedure" sounds so negative, I would say they were playing with optical illusions (and thus playing with the observer).  Not just celators, but other Greek artists knew how to play with optical illusions.  The Parthenon used subtle curves to appear to the eye, even.  sculptures on the pediments were meant to be seen from below.

Offline Enodia

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2019, 11:18:48 pm »
Here's one I got from Forvm some time ago. A fascinating illusion, even if rather boar-ing  🙄...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141775

- Peter


Offline Altamura

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2019, 02:43:57 am »
Another one is this:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5977578

But these "optical tricks" seem to be quite rare in Greek coinage, there are not many of them.

Regards

Altamura

Offline JBF

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2019, 07:10:31 pm »
Even though I think the optical tricks are not _quite_ deceptive, I wonder if including them would run a counter message to the implicit message of coinage of honesty and forthrightness.  Playing with them is kinda an experiment, but it would have no place to go.

One thing that I like is the figure of Poseidon on the coins of Poseidonia, the trident goes behind his head, so as to not block his face.  It is kinda an impossible object.  Of course, the trident itself is something to compensate for the visual displacement of something in the water (fish).

Offline Enodia

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2019, 09:14:13 pm »
 ???

Offline JBF

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2019, 03:26:44 pm »
I don't have a camera (or a smartphone), but if you look on wild winds or elsewhere at a Poseidonia stater (incuse or otherwise), the shaft of the trident that he is jabbing with, goes _behind_ his head (instead of in front of his face) in an impossible manner (which looks plausible only because it is a two dimensional depiction).  This seems to me, to be a crude example of a type of illusion known as an "impossible object" (see wikipedia).  Probably the best known impossible objects are M.C. Escher stairways or waterfalls.

Objects under the surface of water appear displaced from where they actually are.  If you are fishing with a spear you have to compensate for the apparent displacement (or else you will miss), a trident because it has three prongs (teeth), effectively compensates for that apparent displacement.  Aim the middle prong at the fish, and you may hit it with a different prong, but still hit it.  A trident compensates for a type of illusion found in nature, specifically the apparent displacement of items found under water.  The displacement occurs when the light of the image transitions from one medium (water) to another (air).

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2019, 05:10:13 pm »
I believe that in the case of Poseidonia the trident shaft passes behind Poseidon's head only to allow his face to be perfectly visible, as is the case with the famous knight of Gela. More than a visual paradox we could speak of "logical forcing for aesthetic purposes" .....

Offline JBF

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Re: Visual paradoxes on Greek coins
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2020, 07:40:38 pm »
Never noticed that before, for Gela.  Learn something everyday. 

There is, of course, the famous bronze of Poseidon or Zeus (we don't know if he originally had a trident or a thunderbolt), but instead of overhand, the arm is extended to the side, so that whatever the weapon was, it would not block the face.

The face is our 'identity,' and I wondered about what it would imply if the face of a god was blocked.  Of course, it would be ugly to depict the trident in front of the god's face, but I also think it would be an insult to Poseidon, something that Poseidonia and any artisan valuing his skin would try to avoid doing.  I say "try" because in avoiding one mistake he is committing another (IMO).

familiar impossible objects are M.C. Escher waterfalls or stairways.  They are something that are depicted in two dimensions, but could not exist in three dimensions, even though in the two dimensional representation, they are represented as being of a three dimensional object.  In a search to describe what is happening in the depiction, I think of it as the long distant ancestor of Escher waterfalls.  Now that is not a perfect way to think about it, and how the depiction on the Gela coin would alter or modify (or even dismiss) that thinking I don't know.  But, I don't expect anyone else to necessarily think of the Poseidon or Gela horseman figures as "impossible objects" unless they find this way of looking of them, fruitful or at least interesting.

There is an interpretation that the Apollo of Caulonia, and the Poseidon of Poseidonia represent "striking god figurines." in other words, statues.  While I think that is accurate for Caulonia, I do not think that the Poseidon depiction would accurately depict an actual three-dimensional sculpture, although it might (inaccurately) depict it.  For Caulonia, there are coins that portray the Apollo figure from the back, which is why I think it is accurate that the depiction is of a statue.

JBF

 

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