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Author Topic: Sybaris fraction  (Read 2798 times)

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Offline dougsmit

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Sybaris fraction
« on: February 28, 2020, 05:30:26 pm »
My latest acquisition is a 0.25g silver from Sybaris with the reverse showing the city letters   :VMcurve: and four dots.  This specimen sold in 2013, 2019 and 2020 by three dealers each calling the coin an 'obol'.  I am not comfortable with the tendency we have to force Athenian names on denominations of Magna Gracia and might call an obol size coin 'litra' but this coin is reasonably close to 1/3 the normal litra or 1/12 stater or nomos weight and has four dots which we generally associate with the trias.  Can someone familiar with this series talk me through or provide references why I should not call my coin a trias (I can not understand obol but could call it a 1/36th since it is about that fraction of the normal nomos/stater)?  I would appreciate links to online references or suggestions for books on the subject that cover the question.
Thanks.

Offline quadrans

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2020, 05:40:03 pm »
Great find,  +++

 Joe/Q.
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Offline JBF

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2020, 10:26:08 pm »
A trias is a bronze, no.

stater 8.1 (basically) or 125 grains
drachm 2.7
diobol .9
obol   .45

so in weight it is about a hemiobol.

I don't there should be any problem calling this a hemiobol, there seem to
be these very small "hemiobol" coins from Croton, Metapontum, and Sybaris
on the market in the last few years.  But, the smallest coins in reference works
are obols (if I remember correctly), so dealers being cautious call them obols.

much later there is a bronze from Metapontum that says, obolos, on it,

Very nice little coin, congratulations.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2020, 09:53:20 am »
A trias is a bronze, no.

stater 8.1 (basically) or 125 grains
drachm 2.7
diobol .9
obol   .45

so in weight it is about a hemiobol.

I don't there should be any problem calling this a hemiobol, there seem to
be these very small "hemiobol" coins from Croton, Metapontum, and Sybaris
on the market in the last few years.  But, the smallest coins in reference works
are obols (if I remember correctly), so dealers being cautious call them obols.

much later there is a bronze from Metapontum that says, obolos, on it,

Very nice little coin, congratulations.

Trias just means 1/3 of the unit and was made in silver and AE at different times and places.  From Syracuse, I have a 1/6 or hexas with two dots and a half litra (6/12) with six dots.  The question is whether Sybaris or other Italian mints shared the system as well.  If you call the coin a hemiobol, you are saying the dots are just decoration.

A common AE trias with four dots is the Akragas tooth. 



Offline JBF

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2020, 12:48:33 pm »
Actually, that was meant as a question from me.
[A trias is a bronze, no?]
just didn't do the question mark.

The larger, diobols? of these types have four dots, (I seem to remember), maybe these smaller coins are in imitation of those.  Or maybe they are tetraobols, but I don't think so.

As I said before, by _weight_ it is a hemiobol.  The Achaean mints don't have a dual standard unlike Sicily.  Since obol is an early Archaic 'unit' of measurement of money (a spit), I don't see that our importing of Athenian terms to be an issue.  Again, Metapontum later on uses the term "obolos" on a bronze coin.  But, we are talking maybe a 100-150 years after your coin.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2020, 01:05:00 pm »
I tried to do a little research in Italian literature, they should know the best how their ancestor's coins should be called  :).
All I found was "stater", "drachm" and "obol", nothing else.

For example here a part from the proceedings of some conference held in 1992. On page 598 you find a short overview on the weight system of the coinage of Sybaris:
http://www.pugliadigitallibrary.it/media/00/00/91/2869.pdf#page=596&zoom=auto,-268,645

The four dots are explained as being probably marks of value, where Sybaris used a system with four obols to the drachm:
http://www.pugliadigitallibrary.it/media/00/00/91/2869.pdf#page=612&zoom=auto,-268,641

Regards

Altamura

Offline glebe

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2020, 04:26:00 pm »
Plenty of these in acsearch around 0.4 gm, with 4 pellets, so obol seems right.
But what does the MV mean?

Ross G.

Offline JBF

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2020, 06:34:03 pm »
The "M" is an Archaic letter called a san, equivalent of a sigma
The "V" is an upsilon, so together they are the ethnic for Sybaris,
abbreviated through truncation.

coins are weight, type, metal (Isidore of Seville).  The coin is worth its
metal content.  The standard is the Achaean standard, a tridrachm of
(about) 8.1 g. which means a drachm is 2.7 g.  Usually, obols are 1/6th
a drachm, which means a diobol of .9 g. therefore, obol .45 g.
a weight of .25 would be acceptable for a hemiobol (of .23).

The term obol comes from obolos or metal "spit" which was a pre-coinage unit of exchange. 
A drachm is a "handful" of metal spits, six.

You might check out the article by Colin Kraay, something like The Coins of Sybaris after 510 BC
It doesn't have your denomination in it.

Offline glebe

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2020, 08:45:48 pm »
Here's another possible hemi-obol of 0.26g from Hirsch.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=sybaris+mv+hemi&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1&currency=usd&company=

https://tinyurl.com/v5ljexk

The "semi-obols" seem to have four dots though, like the obols, which suggests - what?

Ross G.

Offline JBF

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2020, 10:06:54 pm »
imitation?

Doug Smith's coin is nicer.

Sybaris is the first polis to mint in Southern Italy, its staters are a little heavier than Metapontum's and Croton's which implies that the silver was imported through Sybaris first.  (T.J. Dunbabin, The Western Greeks)

Offline glebe

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2020, 12:59:57 am »
In fact there are 100 examples of this type (ANS 854) in various styles in acsearch, with weights ranging from 0.19 to 0.67g (at least).
A histogram of the weights might tell us whether they divide into obols and hemi-obols, but my guess is is they're all meant to be obols.

Ross G.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2020, 04:06:34 am »
… You might check out the article by Colin Kraay, something like The Coins of Sybaris after 510 BC
It doesn't have your denomination in it. ...
Probably because, as the title already says, Kraay discusses the coins after 510 BC, the coin in discussion here is from before 510 BC.


… In fact there are 100 examples of this type (ANS 854) in various styles in acsearch, with weights ranging from 0.19 to 0.67g (at least). ...
The different number (or sometimes absence) of the pellets on all these coins is also contradicting the theory of being marks of value  :-\.

There is a book about the early coinage of Sybaris by Emanuela Sbagnoli, "La prima moneta in Magna Grecia. Il caso di Sibari", Diogene Edizioni 2013, which perhaps can answer some of our questions, but I don't have access to it  :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Offline Brennos

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2020, 06:08:26 am »
In her book, Spagnoli has identified 3 phases (A B C) and obols were stuck during phase B and C

Phase B : average weight 0.41g min 0.31g max 0.59g
phase C : average weight 0.36g min 0.19g max 0.57g

They are clearly obols in the sens that the average weight is 1/6th of the average weight of the drachms

She has identified 5 different paterns for the reverses




Offline Anaximander

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2020, 06:40:18 am »
Looking at Brennos' timely contribution to this thread, Doug Smith's specimen appears to be a Spagnoli phase C (by weight), but an unpublished pattern of pellets.

As to the litra standard, the tetra is 1/4th of a litra, so 3 onkia and thus the three pellets.  Kamarina bronze tetrantes with three pellets are quite common.

The litra ("pound") was the predominant silver coin denomination among native Sicilians: Sikels (or Sicels, Σικελοί in Greek), Sikanians (or Sicanians), and Elymians. Valued at 12 onkiai, it was equal to 1 lb. of bronze.  That translated to 1/5th of a drachm. Fractional coinage consisted of the hemilitron (1/2 litra = 6 onkiai), the pentonkion (5 onkiai), the tetrantes or "tetra" (1/4th litra = 3 onkiai), the trias (1/3rd litra = 4 onkiai), the hexas (1/6th litra) and the tiny and rare onkia.  The litra eventually displaced the obol (1/6th of a drachm). See O. Hoover HGC 2 pg. lv.

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Offline dougsmit

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2020, 05:47:33 pm »
I find reference to the Achaean oblo being valued at 8 chalkoi so four dots would suggest a hemiobol or 1/24th stater.  I will require convincing that the standards allowed weights of such a huge range in the only 20 years these were made.  I'm wrong as often as I am right and thank those who replied to this inquiry.

Offline JBF

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2020, 08:15:52 pm »
An Achaean obol by weight should be 1/18th of a stater.  The stater is a tridrachm, each drachm being divided by six obols.  I don't know where one gets a drachm divided into four obols.  I am just doing the math for the metrology (science of measurements),  An Achaean stater is 8.1 g.  A drachm is 2.7 g.  An obol is .45 g, a hemiobol is .22 g.  Your coin is .25 g. which seems to imply it is a hemiobol, regardless of what dealers might say.  Yes, it does look like an obol.  But, an Athenian drachm also looks like an Athenian Tetradrachm (but smaller).  We are at a time period where they are just starting to use different types for different denominations.

I would suggest looking at Kraay before dismissing him, a booklet of his article is about $6.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2020, 02:15:56 am »

I would suggest looking at Kraay before dismissing him, a booklet of his article is about $6.
I believe this is a good suggestion even though the coins after 510 were issued by and for completely different people that the original inhabitants of Sybaris who were killed or driven out of town in 510.  I agree there are many coins with many dot arrangements but most I see have strike or centering problems that make the original intent uncertain. Thanks again.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2020, 02:49:23 am »
… I would suggest looking at Kraay before dismissing him, ...
I did  :).

- As the title implies he is really focusing on the coinage of Sybaris II to V, Sybaris I is only mentioned very briefly.
- In an introductory paragraph about Sybaris I Kraay states "This coinage had struck in three main denominations, the stater [PL III. 1], the drachma, and the obol; the reverse type of the first two was the same obverse, but incuse, whereas the reverse of the obol, in relief, consisted of the letters MY. To this period should also be ascribed a triobol [Pl. IV. 1], which seems to have survived in only a single specimen".
- The only names of denominatios in the article are stater, drachm, triobol, diobol and obol. Only in connection with Sybaris IV there is mentioned a trihemiobol once.
- There is no discussion of the metrology of the coins from Sybaris in the article. Weights are only given sporadically. The main interest is the temporal sequence of the coins and their attribution to the five phases of the city's history.

So Kraay doesn't really help in the discussion here  :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Offline JBF

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2020, 11:11:53 am »
I am not saying that Kraay is dealing with metrology.
In fact I say he doesn't have this denomination.
I think that, yes, it is a hemiobol, and it was not familiar in his time.

I think that there is a "sequence," and if we guess the next number
in the "sequence," we would get Doug's coin.  I think that hemiobols were
rarer until, say, the last ten years, in fact I think they were unknown.

There is also an obol out there that has a bull on one side, and an incuse
bull on the reverseKraay doesn't mention that either, then again he
is writing in the sixties and seventies.

Stater = x
Drachm = 1/3 x
Triobol = 1/6 x
Diobol = 1/9 x
obol =  1/18 x
hemiobol-> Doug's coin??

Kraay was trying to figure the change in coinage that happened with the destruction of Sybaris.  Sybaris would be destroyed three more times, until the foundation of Thurium in 443 BC, then a fifth Sybaris would be re-founded on the river Traeis (sp??).

Offline Brennos

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2020, 04:40:03 pm »
I don't think that the Doug's coin is an hemiobol but it would be interesting if someone has the courage to plot an histogram of the weights of the two groups to be sure that the distributions are not bi modal.

I have myself an "heavy" obol (0.48g) and a "light" one (0.19g, possibly the one of the Spagnoli study)

But what could possibly be hemiobols are the incuse coins that have appeared in the market recently and previously unpublished. Their weights seem to match pretty well a 0.22g theoretical weight.


Offline glebe

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2020, 05:00:10 pm »
I don't think that the Doug's coin is an hemiobol but it would be interesting if someone has the courage to plot an histogram of the weights of the two groups to be sure that the distributions are not bi modal.


I did some quick histograms of some of the ANS 854 types listed in acsearch.
The data is complicated by the presence of many recent light weight examples from Roma Numismatics (from a hoard?) which average 0.26 g with a standard deviation of 0.07 g.
The non-Roma types averaged 0.36 g with an SD of 0.06 g.
There was no clear sign of two separate denominations although I didn't separate the coins according to Spagnoli's types.
What is really needed are histograms of Spagnoli's data for the different types.

Ross G.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2020, 07:26:50 am »
I don't think that the Doug's coin is an hemiobol but it would be interesting if someone has the courage to plot an histogram of the weights of the two groups to be sure that the distributions are not bi modal.


I did some quick histograms of some of the ANS 854 types listed in acsearch.
The data is complicated by the presence of many recent light weight examples from Roma Numismatics (from a hoard?) which average 0.26 g with a standard deviation of 0.07 g.
The non-Roma types averaged 0.36 g with an SD of 0.06 g.
[/b]
There was no clear sign of two separate denominations although I didn't separate the coins according to Spagnoli's types.
What is really needed are histograms of Spagnoli's data for the different types.

Ross G.


This would concern me more but my coin was sold in 2013 by a large US dealer before it was offered and went unsold at high prices more than once by the mentioned UK seller.  Whenever we mine data we must take care to eliminate multiple offerings of a single coin that occurred before it was bought by a collector and removed from the cycle.

Offline JBF

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Re: Sybaris fraction
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2020, 05:42:57 pm »
We know a little bit about what the ancient thought their coins meant, but we don't know very well.  We especially see this in how the early electrum is labeled by how it is a division of the stater (semi-stater, trite, heat, etc.) and how bronze coinage is often labeled by its diameter (AE14).  But, I think that all other things being equal, a merchant would prefer a heavier weight coin to a lighter weight coin.  Please understand that when I say a Sybarite obol weights (about) .44 g, and then I say that a Sybarite coin of .22 would be (about) a hemiobol, I am not saying that the .22 g coin would be considered a hemiobol in antiquity, I am merely saying that if the progress of tridrachm to drachm, to obol continued in that fashion, then the next number is hemiobol, by weight, not by type which at this early period was not that good of an indicator. 

I do not know what the dots mean, but I do not consider them decoration.  They definitely mean something, and they may mean something regarding the denomination, but they are extremely early, not just for the region but for the entire Greek world.  I may be overlooking something, but I cannot think of dots used earlier on ancient Greek coins.  So just because dots are used for denomination elsewhere, later, I am not sure that means that was their purpose here.   Four dots is a weird increment for the denominations at the time in Southern Italy.  It is a fascinating puzzle and I don't know what it means.  But, the Achaean (incuse) coinage is my main focus in collecting, so I guarantee you that I am obsessive on figuring out this and related question.  That does not mean, I am right, that just means I have though about it a lot.  A lot of navel contemplation. ;D

I think that in looking at Doug's coin, we are on the border of the known world, which to me is an exciting place to be.  Either doug's coin is an underweight obol, but then there is the interesting question of what were the circumstances under which it would have been made underweight.  It might be very illuminating for ancient politics and history.  Or, it is a previously unknown denomination.  Or, did Kraay just know that some were light and not mention it.  I find Colin Kraay knowledgeable, insightful and edifying, so I am more inclined to think that he did not know about these lighter versions.  Of course, while we collectors often prefer bigger coins to smaller one's it is often the smaller ones that are more rare, last night went to a presentation on Biblical coins, it is the half shekels of the Jewish revolt that are more rare and valuable than the shekels.  But, whether it is an obol or a hemiobol, doug's coin is interesting (and nicer than mine). 

This is speculation, but the reason why Kroton destroyed Sybaris in 510 was that there was a democratic revolution in Sybaris and the instillation of a tyranny under Telys.  Most accounts make it sound like Kroton's (and the Pythagoreans of Kroton) reaction was immediately after the revolt, but from piecing together things from Herodotus, it was a few years before Kroton actually attacked.  I don't "know" this, but it seems to me that this coinage, which in general is cruder than what is before, and after, could have come from this window of time, right before the destruction, during the reign of Telys.  Like I said, this is speculation, but it would explain why some issues are pretty crude style, and why others are light weight

I liked Ross's (glebe) approach in trying to shed light on the matter.  Always like to get more insight on these issues.

Kind Regards,
John

 

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