Classical Numismatics Discussion
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Coin Identification/Authenticity - confirmation? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Vic D
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« on: July 10, 2019, 04:27:26 am »

I've been collecting - then trading in - ancient coins for the past 30+ years - but I can still get caught out by fakes.= - hence this request. I'm attaching pics of four Imperial denarii that I have recently been offered. The seller as acting as a middleman for a 'Turkish archaeologist' - he professed no numismatic knowledge personally, and so did not offer any certain identifications.

After some research I have been able to identify them all - see photos: any confirmation would be greatly appreciated -  but their condition seems suspiciously pristine to me - and after a looking through the FAC Fakes Database, I believe at least two of them (the Gordian III 'Equestrian' denarius, and the Caracall 'Profectio' denarius) may be fakes

I realise any advice anyone may be kind enough to give will lack the confidence of actually handling these coins, but what do you think?

Yours hopefully -

Vic Davies

PS: I have taken larger pictures of all these coins, but couldn't submit them as attachments individuallly because of size (Kb) restrictions.

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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 04:39:45 am »

While there is nothing obviously wrong with them in the photos, it is absolutely impossible to give an opinion of value from those photographs through plastic.

Please review our rules for this board - https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=80768.0

1. DO NOT ASK ABOUT A COIN YOU ARE CONSIDERING BUYING. If you do not know the coin is genuine and/or do not know the expertise or honesty of the seller, then DO NOT BUY. It is foolish to buy a coin you do not know from a seller you do not know, even if someone on the internet says it looks OK in a photograph.  

2. DO NOT ASK ABOUT SELLERS. Sellers that have been identified as Notorious Fake Sellers are listed here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=18502.0.  We do not recommend buying from the sellers on Forum's Notorious Fake Sellers List (NFSL).  We do not allow screening of other sellers here.  If you are looking for a reputable dealer, buy from Forum Ancient Coins.

3. ONE coin per thread. Do not post groups of coins unless you only want opinions on the whole group and not the individual coins in the group. Another exception is if posting multiple coins provides evidence that the coins are fake, post all the coins.  

4. Use a descriptive subject. Rather than writing "Authentication Needed" or "Is it Real?" in the subject heading, include the name of the type and if it is from a Notorious Fake Seller.

5. Post only coins you suspect may be fake. Never post coins that you believe are genuine. Here we discuss suspected fakes, we don't confirm authenticity.

6. Check the Fake Coin Reports first. If you have checked the Fake Coin Reports, note in your post if a similar fake coin has been reported or not.

7. If you bought it from eBay or it is listed on eBay, check Forum's Notorious Fake Seller List first and if you bought from or it is offered by a listed seller, note that in your post.  

8. Do not name the seller unless they are on Forum's Notorious Fake Seller List. If the coin is offered on eBay, you can mention that. If the coin is not on eBay, do not name the venue or website. Do not give your opinion of the seller, good or bad.

9. Upload photos, don't link. Don't use links to Image Shack, your own website or any other website to post photos.  Upload the photos to the discussion board.  Linked photos eventually become a red X making the thread worthless as a reference.  

10. Include as much information as possible. Say why you think it might be fake. Include the weight, diameter, and die axis. Include a description and references if possible.

11. Do not include or discuss price.  

12. Do not link to eBay or any other website.  

13. DO NOT EMAIL OR PRIVATE MESSAGE FORUM STAFF TO TELL THEM YOUR COIN IS ON THE BOARDS FOR AUTHENTICATION.  If we have time, we will give a free opinion on the board. Usually another member will help you before we find time. Our email authentication and ID service costs $45 per coin.  Please do not email us for Authentication or ID help unless you want to pay $45. (The price is high because we don't want you to ask!)
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2019, 02:55:00 pm »

In addition to Joe's rules of the board, here's a clue: real archaeologists and real professionals in other art history disciplines do not sell artifacts except under clear ethical guidelines.  So being a "middleman" for an "archeologist" is the same as being  a "middleman" for a drug dealer or looter or grave robber or whatever.   If one wants to legally sell coins as a business, you disclose your identity, meet the standards of any of numerous International coin dealer societies, and do business in conformance with the laws of the export country and the import country.  Everyone and everything else is just being some form of a crook and the seller gets what they deserve for dealing with crooks.
  People can get all bothered about being called "crooks" but that comes with the territory of breaking the law in your country.
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Vic D
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 03:34:18 am »

Thanks very much - it's all good advice ... but I have just one other thing to request - if you don't mind taking a look again at the Gordian III coin (attached - this time not through plastic!) - which I have personally decided is a fake. If you think you agree, I would like to nominate it for the fakes database. Also, as fakes have become such a plague nowadays, is there a way I can (with your help) bring this guy and his Turkish associates to justice?

Sincere regards

Vic
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 06:12:32 am »

Compare with this one

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-2081
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Vic D
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 07:05:12 am »

Hmmm -  it's clear that the acknowledged fake is substantially different (obverse and reverse) from my pics .... the dies producing them clearly bear no relation to each other, and also the wear/corrosion on my 'suspect' looks comparativel genuine. Why would a forger go to the trouble of simulating such a high degree of wear -  when the coin's value (if validated as being genuine) would thereby be significantly lowered?
Conclusion? I am now inclined to believe 'my' coin is authentic.  Agreed?
Cheers! 
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 07:16:55 am »

Why did you suspect it was fake before?
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Joseph Sermarini
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Vic D
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 10:00:21 am »

I was suspicious of its source (see your previous comments... I was unhappy for the same reasons) and it appeared to me that the coin's general lack of definition might indicate that it been cast, rather than struck. I now see that this could simply be the effects of wear.  Do you agree?
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curtislclay
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2019, 10:08:10 am »

I find the green deposits on both sides quite convincing.

The coin was struck from worn dies, especially the reverse.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2019, 11:05:48 am »

While we don't authenticate coins here, as Curtis pointed out the green deposits are convincing, everything we can see in the photos suggests it is likely authentic, and there really is nothing at all suspicious about it.
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Joseph Sermarini
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Vic D
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2019, 01:47:35 pm »

Thanks very much - yes, I fully understand that you can't authenticate it, as such. Nevertheless your advice has been most helpful.
Amongst other things I now intend to establish the identity and bona fides of the coin's seller and source , as a necessary pre-condition for doing any more business with him/them.
Cheers!
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Coin Identification/Authenticity - confirmation? « previous next »
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