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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Alexander Jannaeus Prutah...the Real Deal or Tourist Replica? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Alexander Jannaeus Prutah...the Real Deal or Tourist Replica?  (Read 355 times)
Douglas B2
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« on: July 01, 2019, 09:10:45 pm »

I picked up this little guy and am curious about it.  I have $2.50 invested in it, so either way I am very happy or I am not real happy, but not hurt.  It measures almost 13mm on the longest side and 11mm on the narrowest side.  I don't have a way to weigh it.  I am sorry.  Overall it seems to look okay to me and I don't have any particular reason to believe that it is a replica other than:

1.  I looks more crude than others I see online
2.  I still don't trust my "eye" 100% when it comes to ancient coins of this type

Thank you for your time.

Doug
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2019, 09:13:01 pm »

Looks good to me

EDIT:  I guess I didn't look closely enough past the patina...
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2019, 09:28:55 pm »

Thank you for your time.  I appreciate it.  I was hoping that others would believe it was authentic.
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2019, 06:38:12 am »

Too crude, no, not even close.  The type does include larger well engraved and struck coins on beveled flans, but the crude end extends to barely identifiable types struck on tiny thin pieces of copper only recognizable by their peculiar fabric with remnants of sprues.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=812&pos=0&sold=1

Your flan is oddly round for a somewhat crude example, but I think the patina looks genuine.
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2019, 09:32:34 am »

I am not sure about the authenticity either. The rays seem especially unusual and the flan is not bevelled.
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2019, 10:46:15 am »

Too crude, no, not even close.  The type does include larger well engraved and struck coins on beveled flans, but the crude end extends to barely identifiable types struck on tiny thin pieces of copper only recognizable by their peculiar fabric with remnants of sprues.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=812&pos=0&sold=1

Your flan is oddly round for a somewhat crude example, but I think the patina looks genuine.

With it being too crude to be authentic, yet have real patina, does this just make it an old tourist replica or something different?  I really appreciate your time.
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Douglas B2
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2019, 10:53:30 am »

Is this possibly what it is?

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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2019, 11:08:01 am »

In my post above I say it is NOT too crude to be authentic.

I said it is oddly round. Crude examples like yours are almost never round and almost always have sprue remnants.  

A fake coin can never have a genuine patina.  I said the patina on your coin looks genuine, but fake patina's can look like quite good, especially in a photo.

Your coin appears to be a match to the replicas you just posted, so your coin and its patina must both be fake.



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Joseph Sermarini
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Douglas B2
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2019, 11:18:25 am »

I was in no way trying to question you.  I am new to ancient Judean coins.  I am just trying to learn.  I was not exactly sure as to how to label this coin.  I was not sure if it was a contemporary imitation or a replica from the 1800's.  Please accept my apology as I was not trying to come across as rude, argumentative or questioning you.  I am grateful for any help that I get and I am so early in the learning stages of this area of ancients.
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2019, 11:57:36 am »

No need to apologize and I did not think you were questioning me. It would be OK if you did question me, but I actually just thought your were misunderstanding me.

It is a modern replica.  I don't know where you are getting the 1880s?

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Douglas B2
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2019, 12:04:51 pm »

Okay, I am confused.  How can you tell that it is a modern replica?  The description on the image that I posted says circa 6 AD.  Here is the exact wording.

"Judaea or Samaria, Anonymous Imitative Issue, AE Prutah, c.6 AD"

I know that I am missing something but as a new collector, but I don't know what.
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2019, 12:28:09 pm »

I don't know where you obtained those images but I do not believe the coin in the photos is from c. 6 A.D.  I think it is a modern replica.  Go to the link I gave you above.  Look at the genuine coins on the Forum sold page.  Your coin and the nearly identical one you found look very different from the coins on that page.  
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2019, 12:43:29 pm »

I'll have to look more closely past the patina.  It was pretty convincing...
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 01:02:20 pm »

Here is the link to where the images came from.  It is about 2/3 the way down.  I know nothing about this site.

https://www.beastcoins.com/Jewish/Jewish.htm
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2019, 01:14:28 pm »

Zach Beasley is a reputable numismatist (now responsible for ancient coins at Heritage) and that is his site, but I have to disagree. I strongly believe it is a modern replica.
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2019, 01:15:32 pm »

I don't know where you obtained those images but I do not believe the coin in the photos is from c. 6 A.D.  I think it is a modern replica.  Go to the link I gave you above.  Look at the genuine coins on the Forum sold page.  Your coin and the nearly identical one you found look very different from the coins on that page.  

I agree.  Zach says imitation but it doesn’t look ancient.
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Douglas B2
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2019, 01:29:24 pm »

Okay, I will label it a coin that the experts disagree on its authenticity.  I can live with that.  Here are a couple more images, hopefully a little better than the originals.
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Douglas B2
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2019, 01:29:24 pm »

Okay, I will label it a coin that the experts disagree on its authenticity.  I can live with that.  Here are a couple more images, hopefully a little better than the originals.
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2019, 03:36:50 am »

From my perspective, the patina is looking convincing, but the workmanship is fully out for both official issues or contemporary imitations. What is the financial justification to even start the process of forging such a cheap coins? The ROI of such venture seems to be very low.

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Dominic T
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2019, 05:21:20 am »

What is the financial justification to even start the process of forging such a cheap coins? The ROI of such venture seems to be very low.

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Kleptomania : the recurrent inability to resist urges to steal items that you generally don't really need and that usually have little value. Kleptomania is a rare but serious mental health disorder.

Forgerymania : the serious mental health disorder to forging counterfeit coins that usually have little value...
DT
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Douglas B2
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2019, 08:48:29 pm »

I know so little about Judean coins.  I have been spending as much time as I can attempting to research this coin.  There isn't much that I have found so far.  The only near identical coin that I have found online is on Zach Beasley's website, Beast Coins.  I did find one journal article talking about Samaritan coins.  This article mentioned contemporary imitations that they made.  This article only goes into minor detail as it's focus was something different.

On the other hand, the example on Beast Coins is the ONLY example that I can find.  It looks to be an ancient coin in hand.  I am hesitant to say that it is a Samaritan imitative just quite yet.  I need to do more research before I can make a personal judgement call.  This coin isn't going anywhere.  I am not trying to sell it and I do have the rest of my life to research it.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Alexander Jannaeus Prutah...the Real Deal or Tourist Replica? « previous next »
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