Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Mystery Domitian denarius  (Read 3045 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Mystery Domitian denarius
« on: June 20, 2019, 11:09:58 pm »
Well, I said I wasn't going to post this until it was in hand, but I just can't wait.  I purchased this coin thinking it was RIC 539 (R2) under Vespasian.  However, after I won I noticed that the legend is blundered.  Instead of:

CAES AVG F DOMITIAN COS II

it reads:

CAES AV DOMITIAN COS II

It's pretty clear from the photo it's missing the G and F on the obverse.  There is no footnote in RIC noting an engravers error and I can't find another on acsearch or Coinarchives.  In talking with David we both agree it looks like a product of an Eastern mint like Antioch or even the "O" mint.  David points out the clumsy lettering and ragged flan.  The portrait doesn't look like a product of Rome either, although the early portraits of Domitian are not as stylized as they would become later on.  I've never seen an Eastern mint for this issue.  It's wonderfully executed and it's nice to still get the centering circle on the reverse.  So, the question is...official coin or ancient counterfeit?  

I won't have it in hand for at least a week but I thought the sellers pictures were good enough to start the conversation. Claimed weight is 3.4g.

    


Offline quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10689
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2019, 01:19:18 am »
Hmm, really interesting,  +++

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline shanxi

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 3031
    • My gallery
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2019, 01:59:46 am »


CAES AV DOMITIAN COS III




I see (or don't see) the missing letters, but COS II

Maybe you can find a reverse die match. For the official coins there should be only a limited number of dies.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2019, 07:16:13 am »
Thanks Shanxi, that was a typo.  Indeed it is COS II.

Offline David Atherton

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4704
  • The meaning of life can be found in a coin.
    • Flavian Fanatic Blog
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2019, 07:39:36 am »
Although it is remotely possible the piece is 'Eastern', I believe it to be an ancient forgery. The lettering and mistakes are too crude for Rome, IMHO.

Offline FlaviusDomitianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1766
    • My gallery:
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2019, 10:52:11 am »
Hard to say.

Style and lettering remind me of the Antiochene Flavian denarii, altough so far we don't know of any denarius struck for Domitian.

That's intriguing

Alberto

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2019, 01:52:40 pm »
Yes, this is what is fascinating about this coin.  I posted here in the hopes of someone remembering a similar example. 

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2019, 12:08:57 pm »
Well, I found another coin (2 different photos), where it is almost certain the same artist engraved the portrait.  Is that also a faint centering circle on the reverse?  Lettering is different.  Could this be a case of an apprentice doing the lettering?




Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2019, 12:46:32 pm »
More and more fascinating!

Offline stevex6

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1523
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2019, 10:49:55 pm »
Pretty cool, Jay ... congrats on scoring that sweet mystery coin (good luck sleuthing!)

 +++

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2019, 02:25:02 pm »
Well, the coin arrived today.  I must say it really does have an Antiochine like flan.  The edge is ragged like the Antioch series with lots of striations. The flan tappers down  to one side.  No sign of being a fouree.  Image is clickable for a larger pic.

3.34g

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-156281

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2019, 02:35:20 pm »
I do not know what it would be if not Antioch.

Offline FlaviusDomitianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1766
    • My gallery:
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2019, 02:35:46 pm »
Great news Jay.

You couls forward a picture to Ian Carradice and ask for his opinion too.

Alberto

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2019, 02:38:46 pm »
I do not know what it would be if not Antioch.

That was my feeling originally.

Alberto, I will forward to Ian Carradice and see what he says.


Offline David Atherton

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4704
  • The meaning of life can be found in a coin.
    • Flavian Fanatic Blog
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2019, 03:44:35 pm »
Well, the coin arrived today.  I must say it really does have an Antiochine like flan.  The edge is ragged like the Antioch series with lots of striations. The flan tappers down to to one side.  No sign of being a fouree.  Image is clickable for a larger pic.

3.34g

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-156281

Can you show a photo of the edge? I'm very curious.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2019, 04:00:05 pm »
Edge shots

Offline Nemonater

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1149
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2019, 05:44:27 pm »
What a cool coin, the style is excellent.  I'm looking forward to hearing the updates!

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2019, 05:53:07 pm »
Thanks!  I've fired an email off to Professor Carradice

Offline David Atherton

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4704
  • The meaning of life can be found in a coin.
    • Flavian Fanatic Blog
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2019, 07:23:04 am »
Thanks for showing the edge photos. This type of flan for denarii is fairly common for coins from the East, not just Antioch. Given the eBay seller's location and the coin's fabric, no doubt it is of Eastern manufacture.

The question remains is it official? I'm more in the unofficial camp. Why? Crude style, mistakes in the legend, and the fact this type for Domitian as Caesar is totally unknown in the East. Also, no coins were struck for Domitian as Caesar at Antioch.

An intriguing piece to be sure.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2019, 05:00:49 pm »
Thanks David.  I showed Robert Kokotailo the coin today and he agrees, ancient and probably eastern but has the same question...official or unofficial?

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2019, 08:32:54 pm »
While some may find the style "crude," I think the style both of the portrait and the reverse to be very good--just somewhat different than we are used to.  I think it is official, from an eastern mint, probably Antioch.  Others are sure to disagree, but collecting the unusual always involves ambiguity.

Offline FlaviusDomitianus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1766
    • My gallery:
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2019, 02:36:43 am »
While some may find the style "crude," I think the style both of the portrait and the reverse to be very good--just somewhat different than we are used to.  I think it is official, from an eastern mint, probably Antioch.  Others are sure to disagree, but collecting the unusual always involves ambiguity.


I agree with that.

In almost twenty years of active collecting of Domitian coins I never met unofficial silver coins that weren't fourree.

This is certainly not, given the weight.

The main argument against officiality is the fact that so far no coins of Domitian as Caesar have been recorded. But we all know that there are constantly new discoveries and that this is one of the most fascinating aspects of collecting ancient coins.

Other examples may have been simply overlooked and mistakenly attributed to the mint of Rome.

Alberto

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2019, 07:29:07 am »
This is certainly one of the most interesting coins ever to appear on the Forum!

Offline David Atherton

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4704
  • The meaning of life can be found in a coin.
    • Flavian Fanatic Blog
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2019, 07:35:46 am »
In almost twenty years of active collecting of Domitian coins I never met unofficial silver coins that weren't fourree.

Not all unofficial coins are fourrées. I have one or two examples in my own collection that may be 'unofficial', one of which is even referenced in the new RIC II.1 introduction on p. 8 - 'a recent example seen in trade (Imperial Coins 2004) had the correct legend (and good weight for a denarius, at 3.29g) but a very different, inferior style on both the obverse and reverse. Is such a coin a barbarous imitation, or simply the product of a less able die-engraver employed at the start of a mint's output?'

When weighing all the evidence at hand concerning Jay's piece - crude legend style, mistakes, and an unprecedented fabric for this type what are we left with? Using Occam's razor I would side with a coin of unofficial production.

Offline okidoki

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 4272
    • https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=37270
Re: Mystery Domitian denarius
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2019, 02:42:46 pm »
Great looks and find Jay,

the Legends looks very similar too Hadrian CAPPADOCIA, Caesarea

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5747
All the Best,
Eric
There are no strangers, only friends you do not know yet.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=37270

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity