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Author Topic: Vespasian Trial strike  (Read 964 times)

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Offline kc

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Vespasian Trial strike
« on: June 15, 2019, 12:02:59 pm »
This is an extremely rare trial strike for an As of Vespasian. The obverse die of an As was strucked on a flan of a sestertius.
A similar piece with the same As die but reverse type "LIBERTAS PVBLICA" is in the Mazzini collection, listed under no. 255.
This coin is uncommonly sharp for example looking at the SC.
It is an interesting coin, I will be pleased for additional informations.

Obv. IMP CAESAR VESPASIAN AVG P M TR POT P P COS III, bare head right.
Rev. FORTVNAE REDVCI S C, Fortuna standing left, holding cornucopiae and rudder.
Mint: Rome, 71 AD.

32/33mm 26.61g

Cohen- RIC II¹- (cf. 422) RIC II²- (cf. 73) BMC- Sear- (cf. 2323)




https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-156055

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2019, 12:07:43 pm »
That's simply amazing!  I would love to have that in my flavian collection

Offline kc

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2019, 12:47:08 pm »
OK, I will keep it in mind,. I am sure it would be a good addition to your collection  :)

Offline FlaviusDomitianus

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2019, 01:12:47 pm »
Hi kc,

nice find!

Your coin is apparently unpublished and belongs to a small issue of Sestertii described in RIC 2.1 page 69:

"(d) Variant group of sestertii with small (as) die ending VESPASIAN AVG P M TR POT COS III - Pl. 20".

As noted by Carradice and Buttrey the obverse die has not be found on any As.

They are numbered from 137 to 141; since your reverse would be the first one in alfabetical order, it would probably get number 136A.

This small series is also discussed in the introduction (page 23).

Alberto




Offline kc

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2019, 01:26:12 pm »
Hello Alberto,

Thank you for the hints.

Why these pieces have been strucked with different reverse dies?



Offline FlaviusDomitianus

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 01:32:53 pm »
Hello Alberto,

Thank you for the hints.

Why these pieces have been strucked with different reverse dies?




All the five reverse types (including yours) were struck on regular Sestertii.

Who knows why an unique smaller die was used for the obverse?

Hopefully Curtis will chime in, letting us know his opinion on that matter.

Alberto

Offline Tacitus

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2019, 09:43:18 am »
I wonder if these could be mistakes.
Kind of like the US Mint striking pennies on dime blanks. 

You are tired.  It has been a long day of striking coins.  A newbie slave fetches the wrong hammer and now you have a Ses with an AS obverse.  Hell it is only 1 of 5000 you made today.  No one will notice.  Time for some wine and bread


Offline David Atherton

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2019, 12:29:57 pm »
Terrific rarity!

Although these pieces possibly could be 'test strikes', to my mind they have more in common with mint errors. Either way, it's a neat addition!

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2019, 04:12:42 pm »
Not a trial strike or a mint error in my opinion, but an intentional sestertius obv. die, though why the portrait and legend were cut in middle-bronze size is anyone's guess!

The mint of Rome may have begun its bronze coin production of 71 with two short issues, of which this was the second, before settling on its main first obv. legend of the year,

IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG P M T P P P COS III.

The latest obv. legend on bronzes of the preceding year, 70 AD:

IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG P M T P P P COS II DES III on sestertii (only 1 die), the same but CAES VESPASIAN and COS II D III on middle bronzes (also only 1 die, with bust laureate, draped, cuirassed r.). RIC 32-38. The middle bronzes of this issue might be dupondii or asses or both, since Vespasian had not yet restored the radiate crown as a denominational mark for his dupondii, as we will soon see. Kraay, a very competent practical numismatist, considered them asses; Carradice and Buttrey suggest dupondii, though without being able to assure us that at least one example is definitely in yellow orichalcum rather than red copper. Hopefully renewed examination of the few surviving specimens, or new specimens that are clearly either yellow or red, will eventually clarify the question.

My proposed first short issue of bronze coins in 71: with obv. legend omitting COS III, just

IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG P M TR P, RIC 50-65. Three such obv. dies are known on sestertii. The middle bronzes all have laureate busts, and at least one type definitely occurs both as a yellow dupondius and as a red As (RIC 64 with note), showing that by the beginning of 71 Vespasian had not yet reintroduced the radiate crown as a mark of his dupondii.

The second short issue of early in 71, to which KC's new acquisition belongs: obv. legend

IMP CAESAR VESPASIAN AVG P M TR POT P P COS III on sestertii (only 1 die, with portrait and legend in middle-bronze size, RIC 137-140 and KC's new piece).

On middle bronzes two slight variants of the same legend were used,

(a) CAES not CAESAR on the one known dupondius, RIC 141, Kraay plaster cast in Oxford, with Head radiate r. on obv., so Vespasian had now reintroduced the radiate crown as a mark of his dupondii, proving that this short issue was later than the other one that omits COS III.

(b) CAES not CAESAR as on the dupondius, but also T P instead of TR POT, Head laureate r., apparently an As, RIC 31, a unique coin in Oxford, formerly in my collection, ex Lanz Graz IV, 1974, Hohenkubin middle bronzes, lot 134. The obv. legend might appear to end just COS II, and Buttrey accepted this reading in RIC, though I had informed him that I believed it was just a slightly tooled COS III.

Coming at last to the point, the sestertius obv. die with middle-bronze-size portrait and legend cannot originally have been cut as an As obv. die, because the one certain As of this issue has a variant, slightly shorter, obv. legend, and because in that case no sestertius obv. dies at all would have been engraved for use in this short issue. I also suspect that the broad ring of empty space outside the dotted border on this obv. die, shown clearly by RIC pl. 20, 137, suggests that it was always meant to be a sestertius not a middle-bronze die.

The Fortuna Redux rev. die of KC's new coin had earlier been used in the COS II DES III issue of late 70 AD, RIC pl. 15, 33, giving some support to my suggestion that this second small issue of bronzes in 71 was probably produced quite early in the year. The same rev. die, as Kraay observed, was also used a little later with an obv. die of the main VESPASIANVS issue of 71, Paris pl. XLIV, 486. But it is not certain, of course, that these two small issues of bronze coins were produced one after the other early in 71, before the main VESPASIANVS issue had started, as I have here suggested. Perhaps they were instead produced early in 71 indeed, but as isolated experiments alongside the main VESPASIANVS issue.



Curtis Clay

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2019, 06:11:13 pm »
Outstanding write up Curtis.  Thanks for this.

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2019, 08:04:08 pm »
Curtis, your knowledge is incredible.
What a great asset to FORUM and the hobby!
PeteB

Offline FlaviusDomitianus

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Re: Vespasian Trial strike
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2019, 01:36:21 am »
Curtis, I knew you were able to give us the best possible explanation.

Many thanks for this!

Alberto

 

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