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Author Topic: Ephesus - What is this symbol?  (Read 2753 times)

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Offline OldMoney

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Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« on: April 24, 2019, 12:35:43 am »
This is a subject I have discussed privately with a fellow Forum member in
the past, and wanted now to ask the broader community for their opinions.

This is a coin of Geta from Ephesus, and shows the ubiquitous stag on the
reverse. However, on this and a few other examples, there is an additional
symbol before the stag which remains either unidentified, or unsatisfactorily
identified and not fully explained (IMHO).

I previously wrote: "Karwiese describes this reverse as 'Candelabrum before
stag' ("Hirsch vor Kandelaber"). I am not so sure, and am inclined toward it
possibly being a rudder.
Neither can be readily confirmed, but the rudder compares a little with those
held by Tyche on some other examples.
Could it be a thymiaterion? Something else? BMC describes it as "an object
resembling a bundle of fasces, or a quiver with a conical top surmounted by
a wreath".
" (quoted with a minor edit)

I have attached an image of the coin in question, and ask what others may
think about this (presently) mysterious symbol. What do you think?

Thanks in advance,

- Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline shanxi

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 03:52:34 am »
There is a similar depiction for Severus Alexander:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5487837

A better preserved specimen might help to solve the mystery.

Offline Jochen

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 04:08:54 am »
Looking at the coin of Severus Alexander it can't be a rudder.

Jochen

Offline TIF

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 10:47:18 am »
The ancient coin rudders I've seen all have a t-shaped tiller rather than a ring handle, and business end of other rudder examples is more splayed or seems to have more separation of the vertical pieces.

I suppose cricket bat is not an option?   ;D

Might it be some sort of column, and the thing atop a... erm... not sure-- statue?  The general shape of the "statue" is reminiscent of the general shape of some cult statues of Diana/Artemis, and those are certainly seen on other coins of Ephesus.  Perhaps a stylized statue?  Probably not... but maybe something along those lines.

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 11:50:18 am »
Looks like a simplified burning altar, a depiction used already for Pius: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=405561
The circle above is unclear though.

Jérôme

Offline Jochen

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 12:40:34 pm »
The circle above the altar can simply be a wreath.

Jochen

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 12:55:50 pm »
The circle above the altar can simply be a wreath.

Jochen

Indeed I was thinking maybe of the stag holding a crown, but I didn't find any other similar depiction.

Jérôme

Offline n.igma

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 06:49:09 pm »
A salt lick to attract deer/stags?
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline stevex6

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 11:44:15 pm »
Hmmm, I'm no Greek scholar, but this popped into my mind ...

 ;)


Offline n.igma

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2019, 04:56:01 am »
The question has to be asked:  Is it really a symbol, rather than a component of the reverse iconography involving the stag?  

To my eye it is unusually large for a symbol. The latter is usually associated with a mint, an issuer, or mint official, etc, divorced from the primary iconography and often a component in the mint's control process. That does not appear to be the case here.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline shanxi

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2019, 08:54:45 am »
Two more of Severus Alexander. The object similar but smaller and without loop. RPC calls it "torch?"

http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/6/5027/

http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/6/5027/1/

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2019, 09:28:16 am »

Offline Altamura

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2019, 01:43:04 pm »
In Friedrich Imhoof-Blumer, "Kleinasiatische Münzen" there is a description of this type on page 60 number 68:
https://archive.org/details/kleinasiatischem01imho/page/60
the object is called a thymiaterion.

The coin is depicted on plate II as number 24 and the object looks very similar than on the coin presented here:
https://archive.org/details/kleinasiatischem01imho/page/n311

I-B also cites Mionnet for a coin of Severus Alexander and states that Mionnet says "quiver" to the object. The Mionnet coin is this one (also linked above by Shanxi):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85180996
Here the object seems to be narrower than on the Geta coins, so it is perhaps really something different.

Regards

Altamura



Offline shanxi

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2019, 02:14:39 pm »
If it is a Thymiaterion the ring is supposed to be a bowl.

There are similar perspectively "wrong" depictions.

e.g. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1181932

Therefore it might be possible.



On the other hand the usual depiction of a Thymiaterion looks more like this from Tarsos:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1956314


which is similar to the Thymiaterion shown on the gold Staters from Ephesos:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4776298

but this was several hundred years earlier.  :-\

Offline Altamura

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Offline shanxi

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2019, 02:44:36 pm »
I was talking about ancient greek coin depictions. They are usually not so simple.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5571842
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1657629
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=86477



and yes there are similar ones. I showed one above, and here is another one which is nearly identical with Old Moneys Coin:

http://numismatics.org/collection/0000.999.20912

EDIT (after Altamuras reply): picture added

Offline Altamura

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2019, 02:52:56 pm »
I know. But there are a lot of different shapes on coins because the real objects had been in different shapes as well  :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Offline OldMoney

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2019, 12:04:40 pm »
Thanks shanxi,

The description of that reverse is as follows:
"Juventas, draped, standing left, dropping incense out of right hand on
candelabrum left and holding patera downwards in left
"

That symbol, called a candelabrum, is perhaps the closest representation
of what we see on the Ephesus that I have seen so far. However, a search
for the word "candelabrum" via acsearch bring up a large variety of objects
by that name, not all of them appearing as this one does here.

I suppose therefore, in lieu of an alternative, that a 'candelabrum' will have
to be the current best option, but I also remain open to additional opinions,
and the gathering of additional evidence - one way or the other.

Thanks to all who contributed.

Best wishes,

- Walter

Additional examples showing similar candelabra:
Augustus Denarius - https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5356689
Domitian Denarius - https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5682695
Marcus Aurelius Denarius - https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5719406
(among others)
- W
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline shanxi

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Re: Ephesus - What is this symbol?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2019, 04:08:53 am »
I think it is difficult to distinguish a candelabrum from a thymiaterion. Today the term candelabrum is used for  candle holders, especially candle holders with multiple arms. But this object is not a candle holder since several  depictions show that  incense or something else is dropped on it. Therfore I think you can call it either candelabrum or thymiaterion.

Attached my Fausyina I with Pietas dropping incense on a "candelabrum".

 

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