Author Topic: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype? (Read 3964 times)

Nemonater · « **on:** April 08, 2019, 08:15:18 pm »

This Ptolemy appears to be overstruck on an earlier type. If I'm correct, I was wondering if there was any way of guessing the undertype?

Thanks!

PtolemAE · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2019, 12:34:58 am »

Quote from: Nemonater on April 08, 2019, 08:15:18 pm

This Ptolemy appears to be overstruck on an earlier type. If I'm correct, I was wondering if there was any way of guessing the undertype?

Thanks!

Where do you see evidence of overstrike?

PtolemAE

djmacdo · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2019, 01:27:07 pm »

See B. Emmons, "The Overstruck Coinage of Ptolemy I," ANSNN, vol. 6 (1954), pp. 69-84. These were struck over trimmed tetradrachms of Alexander III.

Nemonater · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2019, 03:00:42 pm »

Thanks djmacdo, I’m definitely going to look up that reference. I thought it overstruck due to the crudely shaped flan and there appears to be some remnants of the undertype in the poorly struck midsection of Athena on the reverse.

Nemonater · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2019, 09:56:43 pm »

Well, I was staring at the reverse while drinking a cup of tea and I almost choked when it jumped out at me.

Anyone else see it?

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2019, 10:17:08 pm »

No...but I want to!

Nemonater · « **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2019, 10:35:52 pm »

Alright....Spoiler alert.....Don't scroll down if you want to figure it out on your own!!
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On the obverse there is the clear remnants of the beading of the Alexander undertype.I think I miiiiight see a bit of Zeus but I need to do more detective work. The reverse shows the outline of Alexander's eye and profile facing right, descending down beneath Athena's shield. Remnants of the hair and mane behind. Anyone disagree? Am I just imagining things?

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2019, 10:53:34 pm »

I see it with your red lines clear as day but I'm having difficulty "seeing" that on the original.

Nemonater · « **Reply #8 on:** April 09, 2019, 11:01:34 pm »

Does this help? I'll try to take a better picture. Once you see the lips between the shield and the helmet, the rest is easier to make out.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2019, 12:03:19 am »

There it is!

Good eyes Nemo!

Nemonater · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2019, 10:38:35 am »

Thanks!

PtolemAE · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2019, 07:42:19 pm »

Quote from: Nemonater on April 10, 2019, 10:38:35 am

Thanks!

There it is... Faintest hint of undertype maybe caused by pre-smashing the original coin but could also be simply that the fields are where the overstrike would most completely eradicate the undertype. This is the definition of 'low relief'

PtolemAE

Nemonater · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2019, 06:54:17 am »

Yes, the lowest relief possible!

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2019, 09:29:56 am »

Nemonater you have a talented eye for undertypes. I don't think I would have ever spotted that face.

Nemonater · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2019, 11:37:37 am »

Thanks Joe. I thought it was completely hopeless and then it just jumped out at me.

quadrans · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2019, 11:39:07 am »

Great,

Q.

Nemonater · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2019, 11:55:41 am »

Thanks Q!

Nemonater · « **Reply #17 on:** April 11, 2019, 09:48:12 pm »

I just added two Ptolemy's to my gallery along with a little commentary on these trimmed, overstruck issues.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-154565

A second example.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-154566

quadrans · « **Reply #18 on:** April 12, 2019, 02:17:17 am »

Hmm, another nice find,

Q.

djmacdo · « **Reply #19 on:** April 12, 2019, 10:54:57 am »

Here is mine (if I can remember how to post a photo)

Nemonater · « **Reply #20 on:** April 12, 2019, 11:22:05 am »

Thanks Q!

djmacdo, that is a fantastic example, thanks for posting it. I love the Zeus obverse!

quadrans · « **Reply #21 on:** April 12, 2019, 11:32:34 am »

I agree, another great example,

Q.

djmacdo · « **Reply #22 on:** April 12, 2019, 12:34:50 pm »

Better resolution:

Molinari · « **Reply #23 on:** April 12, 2019, 01:14:21 pm »

Great example, Mac.

Nemonater · « **Reply #24 on:** April 12, 2019, 06:45:48 pm »

Is there a consensus on the meaning of the Δ seen on Ptolemy tets? I've seen it referred to as "the signature of the master engraver."

PtolemAE · « **Reply #25 on:** April 17, 2019, 02:20:52 pm »

Nemonater · « **Reply #26 on:** April 17, 2019, 08:34:02 pm »

quadrans · « **Reply #27 on:** April 18, 2019, 01:23:16 am »

PtolemAE · « **Reply #28 on:** April 18, 2019, 02:17:24 am »

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Author Topic: Ptolemy I Soter Tetradrachm Undertype? (Read 3964 times)