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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Greek Coins (Moderators: Dino, Meepzorp)  |  Topic: artist signatures on coins 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: artist signatures on coins  (Read 2687 times)
Grant H
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2019, 05:41:25 am »

Larissa obverse die signed by Simo,photo CNG
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JBF
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2019, 08:05:18 pm »

So, what is your conclusion about the Larissas having so many places for the signature, including the reverse?
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Kevin D
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2019, 09:52:06 am »

Similarly the delta on the Ptolemy coins is disputed by many scholars as an artist's mark. Rather appears to be a internal control in the minting process.  

Catharine C. Lorber  ‘Coins Of The Ptolemaic Empire’  Part 1, Volume 1
Pages 36-37, Cryptic Controls.

In the above cited pages of her book, Catharine makes a very good case for this not being an artist's mark.

It seems to me that if it started out as an artist's mark, it became immobilized, but this is perhaps unlikely, as the tiny delta continues across types and denominations.
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JBF
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2019, 05:15:09 pm »

I am not quite sure what you mean by "it became immobilized"  Is it found on a variety of denominations?

Could something "start off as an artist's mark and end up something else"?

I am not really familiar with Ptolemaic,  I am just a little familiar, and would like to know more.

It sounds like there are no clear artist signatures after Alexander III in the East, they survived for some time afterwards in the West until [what?]?.  Is that a fair assessment???  Besides Chinese emperor signatures that is:)
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Kevin D
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2019, 05:54:39 pm »

I am not quite sure what you mean by "it became immobilized"  Is it found on a variety of denominations?

Could something "start off as an artist's mark and end up something else"?

I am not really familiar with Ptolemaic,  I am just a little familiar, and would like to know more.

It is felt that the tiny Δ appears on too many dies for them to be the work of a single engraver. For it to be an artist's signature that became immobilized, would mean that it was copied by subsequent engravers, possibly not knowing what its original meaning was. This is perhaps less likely because the tiny Δ continues through changing type, and it is also used on many denominations as well. The tiny Δ lasted into the coinage of Ptolemy II, finally disappearing before circa 275 BC.

Quotes from Catharine Lorber's ‘Coins Of The Ptolemaic Empire’  Part 1, Volume 1:

Pages 36-37, Cryptic Controls.
“In addition to the conventional controls that appear on the reverses of nearly all coins of Ptolemy I, there are cryptic controls on many obverses, usually a tiny letter Δ…It is present on many but not all obverse dies of subsequent Alexandrian tetradrachm issues, and also occurs on some of the products of the auxiliary mints that operated briefly after the weight reduction of c. 306. The same tiny Δ was concealed behind Ptolemy’s ear in his Alexandrian portrait coinage, beginning with the gold staters and continuing on all the precious metal denominations introduced in the final reform of 294.”
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Grant H
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2019, 02:04:52 pm »

Dynasts of Lycia Perikles reverse die in Lycian {PERI-KLE.380-360 BC
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Grant H
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2019, 03:32:15 pm »

Tarentum 281-272 BC under horse API,Head 1911 page 60 but some of the finest are signed API and KAL, Vlasto 736
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2019, 03:38:09 pm »

Bigger pics!  Cheesy

Beautiful coins Grant
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Grant H
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2019, 12:49:03 pm »

Calciati Vol.2 Leukas all three coins signed by the same engravers below neck truncation,pegasi 97 Attis,pegasi 105 rams head,pegasi 138 mast with yard arm.
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Grant H
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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2019, 12:53:30 pm »

Calciati Vol 2,pegasi 105
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Grant H
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2019, 12:56:38 pm »

Calciati Vol 2 Leukas pegasi 138
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JBF
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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2019, 02:12:55 pm »

What is the signature?  When are the coins?

For that matter, I confess I don't exactly know where Leuka is.
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Grant H
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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2019, 10:28:07 am »

Leukas a colonies of Corinth on the west coast of Greece,circa 320-280 BC,a single letter
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JBF
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2019, 06:08:40 pm »

In the ancient world, people who worked with their hands were considered low.  Celators probably had the highest status of manual labors, but they still would be considered manual labors, albeit highly skilled manual labors.  To me, it is an interesting question of why they were allowed to sign their work, presumably because no one said they were not to do so.  But, to me this is amazing, because it seems to dry up once one gets into the Hellenistic age.  Perhaps the Hellenistic rulers realized how well coins could be used as propaganda, and wanted to control the message.  That is my hypothesis, but I would love to hear if anyone thinks different.

I think we have a mention of (a) Kimon in Athenaeus of Naucratis.  But, other than possibly that (and Pythagoras), we have no other mentioning of coin designers in the literary record, at least none that I have found.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Greek Coins (Moderators: Dino, Meepzorp)  |  Topic: artist signatures on coins « previous next »
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