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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Domitian Secular Games Dupondius  (Read 475 times)
FlaviusDomitianus
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« on: January 11, 2019, 06:17:38 am »

Hello everyone,

as I wrote many times before the LVDI SAECULARES issue of 88 A.D., mostly the bronze side, is by far my all time favorite.

Recently I came across a specimen of the dupondius RIC 621. I already had one of these in my collection, yet I decided to buy another, because of the sharper reverse (and reverse is the main thing on this series, of course).

Here it is depicted a cerimony inside a temple, with the river god Tiber reclining on the left side.

Kind regards

Alberto


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shanxi
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2019, 07:27:12 am »

Wonderful coin.

Out of couriosity I looked for other examples of RIC 621. There are some on OCRE and a few on acsearch. As far as I see the temple in the back of your coin is different from the common issue which depicts a double temple with nine columns. On your coins there are two temples with four columns connected by a big arch. IMHO this is enough for a var.
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FlaviusDomitianus
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2019, 07:58:10 am »

Thanks Ralf,

I also noticed the difference with my other D621 and my As D627. I have a small db of this series and I've spotted a similar reverse on a coin auctioned by Gorny & Mosch (Auction 237 session 2 lot 1861).

I will update the description in the gallery and forward a picture to Ian Carradice.

Best

Alberto
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okidoki
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2019, 11:22:00 am »

interesting indeed congrats
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All the Best,
Eric
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FlaviusDomitianus
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2019, 11:35:34 am »

Thanks Eric, I always loved this series, it would be great to complete it!

Alberto
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curtislclay
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2019, 11:43:23 am »

There are at least three rev. dies showing this arch between the two pediments supported by columns: cf. your coin, the Gorny specimen you refer to, and Paris pl. CXIV, 466.

The arch between the two triangular pediments was already pointed out by Cohen 91 in his description of the Paris coin: "dans le fond, un temple à quatre colonnes à deux frontons triangulaires, soutenus chacun par deux petites colonnes et un fronton cintré" = "in the background, a temple of four columns with two triangular pediments, each of which is supported by two small columns, and an arched pediment".

It would have been clearer if Cohen had written, "in the background, a temple of four columns, with an arched pediment in the center, between two triangular pediments left and right, each of which is supported by two small columns".

A feature which is clearer on the Paris specimen than on yours and Gorny's: the horizontal beam through the whole temple just above the heads of the two musicians, which cuts off the two middle columns in each of the triangular pediments, explaining why Cohen called these columns "small". According to Hill, Rome Congress 1961, Atti, p. 279, there are thinner columns and a horizontal beam in the other type too, but only partially rendered, and indeed hardly visible in his photo (pl. XX.7). He considers these dupondii to represent the sacrifice to the goddesses of childbirth before a wooden theater on the Campus Martius on the second night of the Ludi Saeculares, but cannot explain the two variants of the type: either two views of the same building, or the rarer variety is an inaccurate version which was withdrawn. Two circular pediments between two triangular pediments, each supported by two columns, in the second story of a portico on a provincial coin of Neocaesarea in Pontus: Price and Trell, Fig. 71. There is doubtless more recent bibliography on the question, with which I am unfortunately not familiar. Certainly these two variants of the type deserve separate numbers in RIC.

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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2019, 12:23:18 pm »

Thanks Curtis for your clear and informative note.

I've just checked my copy of Giard's Catalogue and comparing 466 and 467 - side by side - it's very effective.

Best

Alberto
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curtislclay
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 12:31:24 pm »

In Giard's photo of Paris 467 one can see the smaller columns between the large ones that Hill was referring to.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2019, 12:01:52 pm »

Prof. Carradice was so kind to send me a fast reply on the matter.

He agrees that the architectural difference is so prominent to deserve a separate entry in the next revision of R.I.C. (621A R2), with Paris 467 as main reference.

Alberto

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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2019, 01:49:47 pm »

Hi FD,

That's a beautiful coin! Smiley

I love all of the figures in the foreground and the architecture in the background.

Meepzorp
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FlaviusDomitianus
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2019, 02:41:59 pm »

Quote from: Meepzorp on January 12, 2019, 01:49:47 pm
Hi FD,

That's a beautiful coin! Smiley

I love all of the figures in the foreground and the architecture in the background.

Meepzorp

Thanks Meepzorp,

I've been loving this series from 35 years!

Alberto
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Steve P
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2019, 02:42:22 pm »

Wow! => congrats!!

Man, that coin is fricken awesome!!

 Thumbs Up Shocked Thumbs Up

I love that reverse! (yup, it's a total winner)

Cheers
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FlaviusDomitianus
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2019, 02:43:49 pm »

Thanks Steve for the kind compliments

Alberto
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2019, 02:53:37 pm »

Great coin,

Congratulation... Thumbs Up

Q.
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FlaviusDomitianus
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2019, 02:55:06 pm »

Thanks Joe,

much appreciated

Alberto
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2019, 03:00:55 pm »

Amazing find Alberto and a quick reply from Carradice as well!  Sweet!
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2019, 03:06:49 pm »

Amazing find Alberto and a quick reply from Carradice as well!  Sweet!

Thanks Jay,

as a collector I feel gratified to have helped identify a new variant (with great merit of Ralf and Curtis!)

Alberto
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