Which earlier? double relief or Italian incuse coinage?

[JBF]

First in coinage is the incuse punches on the reverse, then I think we can say that the incuse stamp of the reverse of Aegina or Thebes.  But, what comes next? the incuse reverse types of the Achaean cities of Magna Graecia?  Or the double relief types of other coinage?  Does anyone know a double relief coinage that predates the incuse coinage of MG?

I would date the incuse coinage to c. 532 BC, the arrival of Pythagoras, but older scholars would date it as early as 550 BC, Metapontum 540 BC, and Kroton, Poseidonia and Caulonia to c. 530 BC.  So if you need a date, either 530 or 550 BC.

I think maybe Corinth, archaic double relief, but probably not.

[Brennos]

just before 530 BC for the introduction of the incuse coinage in MG is now a largely shared view among scholars.

The first double relief coinage was introduced in Athens with the beginning of the owls and the chronology remain undecided :
525/520 for Williams, Kraay, Holloway and Picard
515/510 for Bicknell, Kroll and Flament
510/506 for Wallace, Price & Waggoner

Due to hoards, over strikes and other evidences, the introduction of the double relief coinage in Corinth is 10 years later than Athens.

[JBF]

I am glad that 'just before 530' is the recognized dating for the MG incuse coinage, by scholars.  NK Rutter uses the 550 for Sybaris, and 540 for Metapontum in his Historia Numorum Italy.  But, relative means of dating get refined and I am especially not familiar with scholarship outside of English.  My familiarity with articles, even in English, is spotty.  Books, I am better, but most are for particular mints, and therefore, quite dated.

I just threw out Corinth, there is hoard of early Sybaris, and Corinthian with the incuse stamp in Magna Graecia, and I wasn't sure when the double relief started, for Corinth or anywhere else for that matter.

So, Athens, somewhere between 525 and 506 BC, begins double relief coinage.  It is interesting to me, because I feel that technology evolves with the path of least resistance, and that double relief is the natural successor in coinage from the reverse incuse stamp coins (which come roughly after incuse punch).  The incuse types of the Magna Graecia coins are a bad design (imo) because the clashing of the dies through the thin metal flan wear out the dies.  Therefore, I am not sure the incuse would have been introduced after the double relief coinage was introduced.  The incuse types of MG are very interesting, but as far as the evolution of technology it seems to me they are a dead-end.

Looking at the dates for the Athenian double relief coinage, it seems like the question is whether the owls come from the era of Peisistratos and his sons, Hipparchus and Hippias, or shortly after.