Bruttium, Kroton, authentic?

[Jochen]

Dear Forum!

A friend has mailed me the pic of a silver-triobol from Kroton that he has found in a box of his father and asks me  to identify it. It was part of a piece of jewelry. Here is my result:

Bruttium, Kroton, 525-425 BC
AR - Triobol, 9-11mm, 1.5g
obv. Pegasus with curled wings flying l.
rev.Tripod with Lebes
      l. QPO
ref. BMC 51-58

Because this types are not in the centre of my collection I'm not able to make a statement about its authenticity. Is it a real ancient coin or only a tourist fake?

Thanks in advance
Jochen

[djmacdo]

The photos are so poorly focused that it is impossible to say much about the coin, but my first impression is that it does not look good.

[Akropolis]

I agree with Mac. Probably a poor cast fake.
PeteB

[Jochen]

Thank you. I will mail him the sad result.

Best regards

[JBF]

I'm not very good about telling coins from a photograph, but specifically why do you consider it a cast fake?  If the photo was better, could it confirm or deny what you perhaps only suspect???

I am not saying you're wrong, I am just asking for a more explicit analysis of whether it is a cast fake.

Of course, if it is a replica, it is a replica of a genuine coin, there are triobols who have a Corinthian pegasus (and usually a koppa) on one side, and a tripod with an ethnic on the other.  These coins should actually be considered joint issues, as are a lot of the other fractionals from Kroton at that time.

Kind Regards,
JBF

[Jay GT4]

These are usually found pretty rough but the smooth devices and rough fields is kind of strange.  A better pic will certainly help.

[Jochen]

Dear friends!

I have asked my friend to send me a better pic. Now he has scanned his coin and here it is. I think this pic is much better to make a decision.

Thanks in advance
Jochen

[Jay GT4]

Still not a great pic but I would lean towards real.

[Akropolis]

A large photo of the edges would help.
PeteB

[Joe Sermarini]

I lean just slightly toward cast replica.

[Jochen]

A very difficult situatíon! Now my friend has scanned 3 different parts of the edge. What do you can say now?

Or if that coin would be offered for sale (it is not!) would you buy it?

Thanks in Advance
Jochen

[Joe Sermarini]

The edges look OK. I just cannot give a worthwhile opinion from the photos.  Of course, I would not buy it being uncertain of authenticity.

[JBF]

Kroton Stater is (about) 8. grams.
A sixth of that (triobol) is, ideally, 1.33... grams.
On Magna Graecia coinage (magnagraecia.nl) out of 39 tripod/pegasus triobols listed but not shown,
2 weigh at/over 1.4 (and one at 1.4), of course, .1 is not that much.
Your friend has 1.5, but operator error or inexact scales could probably account for that.

I cannot find any like your coin on magnagraecia.nl, or coin archive, or elsewhere.  Which means if it is cast, it is not cast of any "popular" example.  On the tripod there looks like a "pit" at the left lion's foot and between the left and center tripod leg.  "pit" is my term for a hole, why it is there, I don't know.  Don't read anything more into the term please.  I would assume that something scraped across the pegasus.

By "like yours," I mean minor things like what side is the ethnic on, how the ground line has one dot up above the line of the others, the pegasus facing left, no koppa below the pegasus (although it may have been corroded off.)  the koppa and the omicron and the ornaments above the tripod, are formed by punches.  The dotted rim on the tripod side.  magnagraecia has enough verbal descriptions to account for such features, but does not have the corresponding photos.

It does not pass the sniff test, could be authentic, but there are problems with it, I would not want it if it was offered.  To me, too many questions.  It is my area, and always looking for varieties, but too many questions.

One question you might pursue is whether there are forgeries of this kind of coin, and whether they look at all like yours.  I would think that there is not a big market for forged fractionals, but I haven't looked into it, so I might be wrong.

[Jochen]

Thank you so much for your contribution. I have recommended that my friend should show his coin to an experienced numismatist. I think we have one in Tübingen.

Jochen