Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Please look at the RECENT ADDITIONS and PRICE REDUCTIONS at the top and bottom of the page. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES! Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Point your mouse to a coin in RECENT ADDITIONS or PRICE REDUCTIONS on this page to see the the price. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Byzantine Coins (Moderators: vercingetorix, wileyc, Paleologos)  |  Topic: Anonymous folles variants 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Anonymous folles variants  (Read 145 times)
Flav V
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 52


WWW
« on: October 29, 2018, 12:35:48 pm »

Dear customers, looking at an identification topic about anonymous folles, i saw a topic on anonymous folles here, very interesting. Good work!
Now its time to me to share you many interesting things i found.

First, there is variant with IC  XC  you can read here IC   XI  on this link: https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=1555111
Another here: https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=1535676
And for Basile II https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=3092340

IE XE here https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=3320742

C  IC? Here https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=3332204

This coin show two particular things: MMA with no E and A reversed. XC with A? Of NOVHA? Die break. What is your opinion? For me it is a official coin.

Inverted T here https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=3347819

Another thing, why use IC and XC or XI for the lord? The letter C trouble me, latin legend?

Im working on those coins and will propose you a book on in some monthes. Thank you for your comments and ideas about those two coins.
Logged

Simon
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 801


Tetartera Collector


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2018, 01:32:00 pm »

Ideas on the A2 class follis have changed dramatically the last two decades. The difference in the reverse markings are no longer considered  mint markings. This has been proven. Recently several collectors enlightened me regarding the subject.

It is called "Byzantine Monetary Affairs During the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th Centuries" and is a >400 page PhD thesis from Oxford University by Vassiliki Athanassopoulou-Pennas.  His thesis advisor - David Metcalf.

https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:02e4cf82-a638-4bd2-a45b-09c17c585dc8

Here is a shorter read from DOC  that cites the paper.

https://www.academia.edu/10868784/Numismatic_Circulation_in_Corinth_from_976_to_1204

I thought I would point this out in case you had not seen these papers, btw i love these coins.

Logged

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.
Flav V
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 52


WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2018, 02:06:09 pm »

Dear Simon, thank you for reply,

I dont want to work on classification, i just work on variants atcually. But all the coins that i link are troubling. XE... XI.... T inverted.. MMA ... A inverted.
What do you think about it? Is there a meanning for XE or XI?
Logged

Kevin P
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 41


« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 06:51:06 pm »

Many of the mint workers were illiterate - and were working very fast, so sometimes mistakes were made.  The key is to identify true variants (recurring) versus minor variations (a mistake by one worker on a single die).  I believe this is one of the issues with the Class A2 table we've been using for ~100 years.  It is a mix of major varieties and minor variations.  I've been compiling data on Class A2 (>3600 coins from hoards, excavations, and major collections) - and for some of these there are <5 known.  I'd chalk that up to a minor variation, especially when the small populations are just a single dot/slash different than a major variety (say, >50 known) - and the style of the coins is the same.  

I'm glad you brought these variations in the IC XC to our attention.  It's very interesting.  We have no reason to believe that the mint workers intended anything but IC and XC, given how prolific those letters are on the obverses of coins with Jesus on them.  They made a lot of mistakes, for sure, and sometimes letters/words are missing.  No reason to assume anything but mistakes on the part of  (likely) illiterate mint workers working fast.  

Regarding the meaning, the line above the letters indicates it is an abbreviation.  IC XC is short for:

IC = abbreviation for IhSUS (Jesus).  Sometimes IS is used for this abbreviation as well (as on the top of the reverse of Classes B, D, E and F)
XC = abbreviation for XRISTUS (Christ).  Sometimes XS is used for this abbreviation as well (again, on the top of the reverse of Classes B, D, E and F)

So, IC XC (with lines above) is the same as IS XS (with lines above).  Why they use these interchangeably - even on the obverse/reverse of the same coins?  No idea.

On the pictures you shared, in one case the "E" is due to a double strike on the coin, not from the die itself:  https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=3320742

There are quite a few XI coins, though, so that could be worth exploring.  

Kevin
Logged
Flav V
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 52


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 04:27:52 pm »

I agree with your comment. But i dont see a double strike on the obverse.  And there is two "E" letters. IE XE. As you point out, there is probably no meaning and just engravor error.
Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Byzantine Coins (Moderators: vercingetorix, wileyc, Paleologos)  |  Topic: Anonymous folles variants « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.891 seconds with 30 queries.