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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Greek Coins (Moderators: Dino, Meepzorp)  |  Topic: Armenian Mt.Ararat Coin Vandalised/Scraped/Chiseled/Tooled 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Armenian Mt.Ararat Coin Vandalised/Scraped/Chiseled/Tooled  (Read 2687 times)
Molinari
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2018, 04:56:57 am »

I agree, these images do make the case.
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Dino
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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2018, 08:28:51 am »

I cannot imagine any clearer proof than these excellent images!

djmacdo-

I can. 

1.  The coin in-hand.
2.  High resolution images of the coin. 

To quote Walter in another thread in the Greek board, which you also followed:

Thanks shanxi,
Absolutely BRILLIANT!
This clearly removes all doubt. My colleague will be most impressed.
I can now stop overlaying images of all of the comparative material I have
downloaded lately (and delete it to make more disc space).
Goes to show how misleading a poor image can be. [/u]
All the best,

- Walter
(Emphasis added)

In that thread, Walter was convinced that what was shown in the photo could not possibly be a wreath.  A die match someone else posted showed that it was.  Incidentally, I thought the field symbol pretty clearly looked like a wreath in that thread.

The point remains, however, that images can be misleading.

And to reiterate my position, I'm not saying the coin hasn't been tooled.  I'm just saying that I don't think that we can reach that conclusion with absolute certainty when we have:

1.  poor quality images of the coin both "before" and "after"
2.  poor quality that is exacerbated by the fact that the coin is dark and therefor harder to photograph
3.  a fake desert patina has been placed on the coin to, at a minimum, show contrast.
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Molinari
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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2018, 09:08:56 am »

It might be useful to write an article aimed at the archaeological community about the basic signs of tooling, for potential publication in KOINON.  I would imagine that more and more archaeologists are doing market research but few have a trained eye to determine these things.
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OldMoney
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« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2018, 12:18:16 pm »

Dino, you misquote me out of context. The image I referred to was terrible, poorly lit,
and demonstrably insufficient for proper comparison. Simply look at the image shanxi
submitted for evidence of that, and of what a quality image may look like.

These images, however, and in spite of your protestations, are more than sufficient for
comparisons (certainly good enough for someone to spend a rather large amount of
money on the purchase of said item, and for others to have bid almost as much).

You are correct to claim that having the coin "in-hand" would be of benefit, but since
neither of us is in that position, then neither of us has an argument for or against in
that regard. We are left to utilise the evidence we have at hand: the images.

You claim, falsely, that I said it "could not possibly be a wreath" on that image. Whereas
what I actually stated was that I was initially not convinced that it was a wreath, and
that is a very much different statement to the one you falsely "quote". If you are going
to quote me, at least do it correctly. I also added that my doubts were due almost
entirely to the poor image itself, something one tends not to do with excellent images.
I also noticed, in spite of your confident after-the-fact statement, that you seem to have
chosen not to contribute your considered "wreath" opinion during the conversation.

"Images can be misleading", as you correctly state. But whilst these images are not
perfect (I don't know what you want in an image) I would submit that they are quite
sufficient for this particular level of visual comparison, one to the other, before and after.

It is apparent that you will not agree with most of what I have submitted, and so be it.
However, if I have helped someone else further in their education on what to look for in
a tooled coin, then I may have gone some way toward achieving something at least.

- Walter
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Dino
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2018, 08:02:43 am »

Dino, you misquote me out of context. The image I referred to was terrible, poorly lit,
and demonstrably insufficient for proper comparison. Simply look at the image shanxi
submitted for evidence of that, and of what a quality image may look like.

Nope.  I quoted you for the proposition that images can be misleading and cited it as example where you were misled by a photo.  Nothing more.


I also noticed, in spite of your confident after-the-fact statement, that you seem to have
chosen not to contribute your considered "wreath" opinion during the conversation.

Didn't see the thread before.  Would have happily given my thoughts if I had.

"Images can be misleading", as you correctly state. But whilst these images are not
perfect (I don't know what you want in an image) I would submit that they are quite
sufficient for this particular level of visual comparison, one to the other, before and after.

Both images are fairly poor.  Your proposition is that the coin was tooled sometime before the first and second photo.  My position is that the photos are not high enough quallity to make that determination.  I see some of the same features you point out in the first photo.

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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 09:49:09 am »

I give up!
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djmacdo
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 02:33:16 pm »

Dino,

Be;lieve what you wish.  I would not buy the coin, would not have it in my collection.
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Dino
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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2018, 07:53:03 am »

That's not the issue.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Greek Coins (Moderators: Dino, Meepzorp)  |  Topic: Armenian Mt.Ararat Coin Vandalised/Scraped/Chiseled/Tooled « previous next »
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