Selinus, Sicily how are the coins dated?

[JBF]

I am interested in the dating of the Selinus (Sicily) coins, and also a general chronology for Selinus.

Not just what the dating is, but more specifically _how_ the dating is done, Hoards, overstrikes, other sources. 
More particularly i want to know
the context for the dating of the earliest tetradrachms with the obverse of Apollo and Artemis in the
chariot/and the god offering the libation on the reverse, with the cock and the bull.

[Molinari]

I'm not sure, but I think Carmen Arnold-Biucchi at Harvard (formerly ANS) is working on a study of the coinage of Selinus.

[Altamura]

A little bit of googling helps  :

A standard reference seems to be Willy Schwabacher. “Die Tetradrachmenprägung von Selinunt” in Mitteilungen der Bayerischen Numismatischen Gesellschaft XLIII (1925).

Here is another article by Christof Boehringer about this coinage:
https://www.e-periodica.ch/digbib/view?pid=snr-003:1997:76::316#10

And here you find a bibliography about Selinos:
https://www.academia.edu/3575474/S._De_Vido_D._Baldassarra_T.M._Lucchelli_Selinunte_in_BTCGI_XVIII_Pisa-Roma-Napoli_2010_596-611_617-678

Regards

Altamura

[djmacdo]

Dating is usually quite imprecise, at least for Greek coins.  Hoards, overstrikes, etc. do help but even there is an element of estimation often based upon style and how an issue seems to fit into the overall pattern of coinages of that city and coinage in general.  We probably ought to write "about" when giving dates for most Greek coins, but we do not.

[JBF]

I am somewhat aware of the ins and outs of dating ancient Greek coins, I am actually interested in the Empedocles story for purification, supposedly honored (according to some assessments) by the coins tetradrachm and didrachms.  But, the typical dating is that the 'honoring' tetradrachms were between 460-440, and the year Empedocles drained the swamp, 444.  So I am wondering if the 460-440 dating could be dated down, not _is_ it dated down, but could it be (or dated up).  Establishing such coins as being  impossible to be influenced by Empedocles would be interesting, but I am sure it is all relative dating.  Hard to pin down.

For scholarship, I wish there was something in God's own language, English,  <grin> but it looks like I may have to break out my high school German and make a go at it.

But thank you for the responses and if there are anymore I would like to hear about them.  I do not necessarily expect to find a new answer looking at material, but I do expect that if I do _not_ look, I won't find anything either.

Of course, one attraction for the Empedocles story is that, if it is true, and the coins were influenced by it, then it would be an absolute dating.  And if wishes were wings, pigs could fly.....

[Brennos]

The hoard evidence is the Selinous Hoard (IGCH 2084) that is the oldest hoard containing selinous tetradrachms.
455 B.C. was the burial date first proposed by Herzfelder in his study but Jenkins (Gela 1970) has donwn dated it to 440-435 B.C. wich in now admitted by the scholar comunity (eg Kraay 1976, Arnold Biucchini 1990, Caccamo Caltabiano 1993 , Westermark 2018).

The period 460 - 427 BC is the less documented and most unknown period in the history of sicily.

So there is no clear evidence from hoards that permitted to reject the Empedocles story related to the choice of the type...

[esnible]

Most scholars started with the Historia Numorum so it can be helpful to look there for the dateable events for the city.

http://snible.org/coins/hn/sicily.html#Selinus

Barclay Head is pretty good at giving the major events known in written sources:

"... the great Carthaginian invasion of Sicily in B.C. 480 ..."
"... the expulsion of the tyrants, B.C. 466 ..."
"... destroyed by the Carthaginians B.C. 409."

There is one more date that Barclay Head uses but does not explain.  It can be seen in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selinunte .

"... the Athenian expedition first arrived in Sicily (415 BCE) ..."

The wiki page provides a good general chronology.

The starting point is to look at the style, weight, and hoard evidence try to put types between the dates we know.  We shouldn't be saying "circa 466-415 BC", we should be saying "probably 466-415 BC".

Although the site hasn't been updated in nearly a decade I use Magna Graecia Coins when I am in a hurry.

http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Area_II_map/Selinous_map/Selinous.html

I am uncertain why the coinage is supposed to stop in 409 at the destruction of the city.  Wikipedia explains that the Selinuntines were living in Selinus until 383 BC and although they lost their people they had enough ethnic identity that they were mentioned in 276 BC when they fought with Pyrrhus.

[JBF]

I do like magnagraecia.nl.  There are minor things overlooked, and minor errors.  But, it is a wonderful achievement.
Great reference for the coins of Greek Italy and Sicily.

Of course, In 415, Athens came over, ostensibly to help their allies, the Segestans (Elmyians, not Greeks), who were being pressured by the Selinous.  Athens was defeated by Syracuse, but destabilized the whole region, opening the door for Carthaginian 'aid' to Segesta.  Selinous and Akragas and Kamarina all fell to the Carthaginians.  I'm sure I am missing others.

I have been trying to figure out an angle, particularly on the Selinunte coinage between 461 and 409.  Looked through the Inventory of Greek Coin Hoards (Kraay, etc), but nothing jumps out to declare matters.  It is clear that Selinous is one of the earliest, if not the earliest mint in Sicily.  Early on it is on the Corinthian standard (tridrachm), and is anepigraphic.  I am not sure anything else that early is on the Corinthian standard.  Something to check.  Being anepigraphic is something it has in common with the EL of Asia Minor and early AG of Velia, and the Auriol material, which in turn, are inspired by the coins of Phocaea, in Ionia.  Furthermore, like Phocaea which has the canting pun of the seal on their coins, Selinous has the canting pun of the wild celery leaf.  Canting puns and other etymological games are favorites of Archaic cultures, not just Greek but also Celtic.  Canting puns are part of certain playful theory of language, that later gets replaced by a more no-nonsense interpretation of language, as conventional instead of natural in how the word matches the thing.  This debate between conventional and natural can be seen played out in Plato's dialogue the 'Cratylus.' between the linguistic naturalist Cratylus and the conventionalist Hermogenes, with Socrates moderating and of course, overshadowing them.  My point is that canting puns are a play off of certain pre-Socratic, sophistic linguistic theory, and they have a time when they are ascendant, and a time when they are in decline.  The early Selinunte anepigraphic staters are part of this building trend.  However, how that trend might help us better understand 461-409 BC, I have no idea.

Another thing I looked at was epigraphy.packhum.org.  Also known as the Packard Humanity Institute (PHI), it is kind of fun to look through the inscriptions (including in some areas coins), to try to get a better picture, unfortunately, my efforts in the realm of Selinous did not turn up anything interesting.  Other cities, yes, Selinous not much.  Of course, my Greek is spotty at best, but I can tell whether something is interesting enough that I should crack open a dictionary, and a grammar.  A negative result is still a result, and so mention it, so others will know that that is a possible source.