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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Celtic, Barbaric & Tribal Imitative Coins (Moderators: Marcus Aurelius, Lee S)  |  Topic: History behind Celtic Philip II imitation tetradrachm 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: History behind Celtic Philip II imitation tetradrachm  (Read 1395 times)
Nathan P
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« on: June 22, 2018, 12:15:37 pm »

I recently picked up the following coin and wondered if anyone knew anything about the history of these coins or could at least lead me in the right direction.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=47002&pos=0

I found that kugelwange means "ball cheek," which I believe describes Philip II's face. But I'm wondering where the word kugelwange comes from? Is it associated with a particular Celtic tribe? And are these kugelwange coins all associated with the Scordiscii tribe? Thanks for any help you can give me!
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2018, 06:13:39 pm »

Kungle is German meaning ball and Wange is German meaning cheek. Many of the names for Celtic coin types are German.
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Joseph Sermarini
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Steve P
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2018, 06:24:24 pm »

Very cool addition, Nathan ... I love those Celtic coins (congrats)

 Greek_Stigma Greek_omega_small 2littleEs Greek_Tau
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Nathan P
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 06:57:06 am »

Thanks Joe and Steve!

This may be a silly question, but why would a celtic coin be described with a German name? Also, any idea on the Scordiscii connection? Are all of these kugelwange coins Scordiscii? Thanks again!
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Altamura
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2018, 11:13:19 am »

... why would a celtic coin be described with a German name? ...
What did you expect? Icelandic  Smiley?
I don't exactly know it, but I would think that the first publications on the coinage of the Scordisci have been written in German and then this term survived.

… Are all of these kugelwange coins Scordiscii? ...
As far as I know they are.

Regards

Altamura
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Nathan P
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2018, 01:13:11 pm »

Thanks Altamura!
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Nikola K
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2019, 02:16:11 pm »

Here is some more info:
Why the name (Kugelwange) is in German:
Karl Pink gave it the name in his catalogue - he was an Austrian I believe. English term is "ball cheek" type. The local name in Serbia/Croatia is Sremski Tip (Type A and B).

Are all of these kugelwange coins Scordisci?
These coins are attributed to Scordisci, since most of the coins were found between Sava and Danube rivers. They can also be from Amantini (client kingdom of Scordisci) or other nearby tribes, however it is not possible to distinguish them, since variations are great, there are no inscriptions and the local tribes were often copying/forging coins of their neighbors and trading. Regarding Celtic trade an interesting fact for me was that there were often finds of Eastern Celtic coins in Celtic hoards in Britain.

Other info:
This is a later phase of copying Philip II tetradrachms. The local Celts have stopped imitating Greek money and have started making it their own, which is visible by the design becoming more abstract.

Silver is of lower quality, so the corrosion is present often. The silver content varies, there are many specimens that are made from Billion, suberats are often as well.

Weight variations are much greater than in the previous phases. Weight for tetradrachm is usually between  11 i 11,6g, however there are many speciments with 10-11g, some much less. Drachms go between 1.9-2.6g. It is hard to set the tetradrachm to drachm ratio due to this and it was probably somewhere between 4-5 drachms to a tetradrachm.
Source - Popović, 1987: 48

There is also a good post on this site here:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=58513.20

Not much is known of the history of Scordisci, but it is an interesting read. My favorite quote is from Roman historian Florus:
“The cruelest of all the Thracians were the Scordisci, and to their strength was added cunning as well”

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Nathan P
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2019, 08:31:59 pm »

Thanks so much for the information, Nikola! I'm going to include some of what you shared in my coin's description, especially the Florus quote and trade with British Celts.

Nathan
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