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Author Topic: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE  (Read 864 times)

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Offline romeman

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Another star/wreath forgery just sold on eBay (#163088272982).

My estimate is that at least half of the roughly 45 examples known to date are forgeries. Quite a few of the “genuine” ones are probably also forgeries, but I still cannot determine that.

A few probably genuine examples can be found in my 2011 paper on these issues (Figure attached).

The example just sold on ebay belongs to a group of six die-matched forgeries, image attached.

To give an idea of the diversity of star/wreath silver types, an image is attached. All examples below the red line are certain forgeries. Many examples above the line are probably forgeries.

/Lars Ramskold

Offline Nikola K

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2018, 05:48:36 pm »
Hi Lars,

Great post. Could you upload a higher resolution image for items below the red line and I will add fake coin reports?


Offline Din X

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2018, 11:11:17 am »
"A few probably genuine examples can be found in my 2011 paper on these issues"

If you do not know how genuine coin of this emission look like how do you know how fakes look like?
If you know how genuine look like you should be able to detect the fakes.
I think that fakes are always condemed because they will be always in some details and things different from authentic coins.
A fake without problems would be a perfect fake.
A perfect fake could not be detected as forgery which would make it to an authetnic coin.

The fakes are condemned based on what?
Condemnation only due to style and unpublished dies and sold by fake seller is error-prone.




Offline romeman

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2018, 01:11:08 pm »
Dear Din X, I wish it was that simple.

For one, the forgeries are produced by using a range of techniques. Some of these forgeries are struck, some are cast. Some have been artificially aged, some not. The silver used varies in fineness and appearance.

There is no fool-proof feature showing a coin to be genuine, but there are many showing a coin to be a forgery. Therefore it is never possible to say with absolute certainly that an antique coin is genuine (unless you found it yourself in untouched strata in the ground).

So we need to be very careful.

You are correct in stating that style is unreliable. None of the star/wreath specimens have been evaluated by me based on style, for the simple reason that we do not know much about the style of genuine specimens, again because we do not know precicely which specimens are genuine.

I have studied about a dozen star/wreath silver specimens. Only under the microscope can I see the features that show some of them to be cast. For that reason I cannot say much about types that I have not been able to examine.

Regarding perfect fakes, see my last post in the threadFausta and Helena Antioch/Nicomedia forgeries: part 1”.

Best regards, /Lars Ramskold

Offline Din X

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2018, 03:04:55 pm »
To detect cast and electrotype fakes is very easy even on pictures if the picture quality is good. (condemnation easy by find mother or twins or by typical problems of cast fakes (sprue, sometimes seam or file marks, softness,  preals/knots and casting defects, shrinkage in size and weight, pearls, casting defect, holes from air bubbles, filled edge crack etc. and electrotype fakes (to halfes are glued together so edge is manipulated, wrong weight in most cases and softness etc.)

If they would be cast or electrotype you should find twins or mother with identical flan shap, centering, wear, scratches etc.
You can modify the casting mould to change flan shape and you can recut details into the casting mould (wax or plastic impression of the mother), but you can see that generally ^^.


To detect transfer die fakes is harder but often still possible if you do die studies (best is if you find authetnic mother or 2 or more examples with too many idential individual characteristic from striking, circulation, envirionment etc.)
Here detail can be recutted into the transfer dies too but it can be detected in most cases, too.


More interesting are fakes from modern dies, this seems to be the case and that is not that easy to prove.


Why are these coins fakes ?
And how do you know that they are fakes?

Do some coins of this emission exist in Museum collections or with an old pedigree from a very old collection or in old literature ?
Do die links exist between this coins ?

They do sometimes pollute excavations with fake coins too to sell later some fakes from the same dies at auction so the earth has to be untouched and some time between find of new unpublished coins and the time when some of this new before the excavations unknown coins will enter the market.


If you combine archaeometry and numismatics you can almost always most likely always say without a doubt if a coin is authentic or not but authentication costs money so it  only makes sense on very expensive coins.



 


Offline romeman

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2018, 03:44:36 pm »
Good to see that you are aware of a number of ways that forgeries are produced. An important way that you don’t mention but of course know of is the re-carving of genuine, common coins to produce rarities (see just now an example on ebay: #232802894304). I described this in an earlier paper (Highly Deceptive Forgeries of Constantine’s SPES PVBLIC Coinage. (2009: Lars Ramskold. The Celator, Dec. 2009, pp. 18-32).

Unfortunately, archaeometry is of limited value in determining authenticity of ancient coins. The only branch of archaeometry (as I understand it) that is applicable is analysis of the metal composition (including isotopes). However, some forgers use authentic ancient coins and melt them to produce flans for the forgeries

There are other scientific methods that can be used. See my paper on Constantine’s Pannonian coin (Methods for Authenticating Ancient Bronze Coins: A Case Study of Constantine's "Pannonian Cap" Coin. (2016: Lars Ramskold, Ronald Bude, Zachary Beasley. Niš & Byzantium XIV, pp. 87-121).

Modern dies used to produced forgeries are still the most common method for gold (see the fakes I described in my paper: Constantine’s Vicennalia and the Death of Crispus. (2013: Lars Ramskold. Niš & Byzantium XI, pp. 409-456, see fig. 10).  Those dies were used for both gold and bronze fakes. Please be aware that n-o-b-o-d-y had even hinted at questioning the authenticity of the gold solidi (sold by NAC and Rauch). Only my die studies revealed them as fakes.

Finally, my point with my posts is not to give a crash course in how to detect forgeries, it is to make collectors aware of groups of forgeries they would otherwise not know of.

Thanks for showing interest in these matters. I wish there were more people having opinions on the existence of numerous coin forgeries.

Offline Din X

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2018, 04:43:42 pm »
archaeometry

You can authenticate the patina, authentic natural grown  patina (malanchite)  over 2000 years has a rougher cristalline structure than an artifical patina grown fast under high temperature (higher temperature faster chemical reaction) and caused in most cases by chemicals mainly acids etc.

You can look if the patina was created with such chemicals which are often used for the production for such patinas but which are not found or not in this amount on an old authentic natural patina.

You can x ray to look how deep the corrosion and patina is, artificial patina is generally only affecting the higher layers.

You can look for traces of modern tools under artificial patina with x-ray.

You can make an alloy analysis to look for elements which should not be in ancient alloys or not in this high amount, or it can be the opposite too that there are some elements are missing that should be in alloy.

Alloy analysis will allow to tell the purity too and some gold fakes have a purity of 99.9 % which was not possibleto achieve  in ancient times even with cementation  99.6 % is the limit in ancient times for gold.

And of course the isotopes analysis to determine the origin location or mine of the metal/ore.

210 PB test, it will tell you if the metal was melted recently or 100 years ago, problem of this method is that you can cheat this method by melting down ancient coins.

You can use U,Th/He test for dating gold coins, this method, measuring amount of Helium is used and working for dating meteorits and works for gold, too.

Or "Leitfähigkeitsmessung" electric conductivity, for example silver can age with the time (cristallize), which will reduce the electric conductivity, the holes and casting defects of cast fakes will reduce the conductivity, too. etc


There are many many more methods but I am too lazy to write them all you can look in internet and you should find more.

Here is a price list with standard methods of archaeometry

http://www.cez-archaeometrie.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Preisliste_CEZA.pdf


There are many methods to condemn fakes and I will not post them all here, I have posted them in the past already to condemn other fakes.
Wrong die axis, weight not matching weight standard, flan shape, size, fabric pressed and not struck, impossible die links etc. ( IBSCC has condemned some due to wrong legends or mint symbols etc.)


YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVEN WHY THIS FAKES ARE REALLY FAKES !!!!






Offline romeman

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2018, 05:34:44 pm »
archaeometry

You can authenticate the patina, authentic natural grown  patina (malanchite)  over 2000 years has a rougher cristalline structure than an artifical patina grown fast under high temperature (higher temperature faster chemical reaction) and caused in most cases by chemicals mainly acids etc.

You can look if the patina was created with such chemicals which are often used for the production for such patinas but which are not found or not in this amount on an old authentic natural patina.

You can x ray to look how deep the corrosion and patina is, artificial patina is generally only affecting the higher layers.

You can look for traces of modern tools under artificial patina with x-ray.

You can make an alloy analysis to look for elements which should not be in ancient alloys or not in this high amount, or it can be the opposite too that there are some elements are missing that should be in alloy.

Alloy analysis will allow to tell the purity too and some gold fakes have a purity of 99.9 % which was not possibleto achieve  in ancient times even with cementation  99.6 % is the limit in ancient times for gold.

And of course the isotopes analysis to determine the origin location or mine of the metal/ore.

210 PB test, it will tell you if the metal was melted recently or 100 years ago, problem of this method is that you can cheat this method by melting down ancient coins.

You can use U,Th/He test for dating gold coins, this method, measuring amount of Helium is used and working for dating meteorits and works for gold, too.

Or "Leitfähigkeitsmessung" electric conductivity, for example silver can age with the time (cristallize), which will reduce the electric conductivity, the holes and casting defects of cast fakes will reduce the conductivity, too. etc

How many of these methods have you actually used on coins? Can you point to any good studies where several of these methods were used on a coin in order to determine authenticity? In our study of the "Pannonian coin" (ref. above), my coworkers and I did use a number of these methods, but our paper is virtually unique.

Of all Late Roman coins/donatives, the star/wreath type is one of the most difficult to study. Some of the forgeries are very easy to detect, others exceedingly difficult, and some specimens appear to be authentic but could be forgeries anyway. The reason why there are so many forgeries of this type is, of course, because it has so few features, making it very easy to copy.

I'll see if I can take a few high magnification photos of a forgery or two to show some of the relevant features.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2018, 09:00:26 am »
Dear Lars,

your studies of fakes are invaluable and very important. But why you upload so small pictures? Image of 45 coins which has only 100 KB is simply unusable. I understand that there are small pictures in printed studies, because good plates are expensive. But we are now in Internet. Why not upload hi-res pictures on free Google Drive? 10 MB (or even 100 MB) instead of 100 KB?

I'm sure that everybody will appreciate it.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 09:54:54 am »
More interesting are fakes from modern dies, this seems to be the case and that is not that easy to prove.

Having looked at ancient coins almost all day, almost every day, for 20 years, I think I can often recognize fakes struck or pressed with modern dies by style. Only very talented engravers can make modern dies that have the correct ancient style for the type.  Most don't even try. 

I note that above you said, "Condemnation only due to style and unpublished dies and sold by fake seller is error-prone." These are, however, precisely the most useful and likely methods of detecting fakes from modern dies.  I don't agree that it is especially error prone.  If we have all three elements, we can usually feel very comfortable that the coin is fake.
 
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Offline romeman

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2018, 11:27:26 am »
Dear Lars, your studies of fakes are invaluable and very important. But why you upload so small pictures? Image of 45 coins which has only 100 KB is simply unusable. I understand that there are small pictures in printed studies, because good plates are expensive. But we are now in Internet. Why not upload hi-res pictures on free Google Drive? 10 MB (or even 100 MB) instead of 100 KB?
Dear Lech,

Thank you for your kind words.

You are of course absolutely right, these images are too small to permit evaluation. The reason is that this is an ongoing study, with only preliminary results. Fake Group 4 was recognized as such only recently, and I expect more of the "genuine" ones to move from "genuine" to "fake".

I uploaded the images because a member asked me about one of the specimens, and I thought I might as well give the forum an indication of how common forgeries are of this strange and enigmatic type. Perhaps I should not have uploaded anything at all.

Some of the star/wreath forgeries can be shown to others to be such by figuring relevant photos. Others must be evaluated using a combination of suspicious features, so the result is not 100% certain.

I intent to publish a paper on the star/wreath types in due time. Until then I collect data and make sure I can study as many examples as possible in real life.

Someone asked if there are any star/wreath examples in public collections. No. Not a single one anywhere (at least not in the BM, BNF, the Hermitage, Vienna, Munich, Bologna, Trier, Madrid, Berlin, Brno, Jerusalem, Budapest, Stockholm, Oxford, Cambridge, Turin, Arles, Belgrade, Krakow, Brussels, Milan, Zagreb, Prague, Warsaw or any other public collections I have studied). And there are no examples described from hoards. These facts alone casts suspicion of the large number of specimens now on the market.

I attach a figure showing some forgeries Type 1.

Offline Din X

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Re: Forgeries of the star/wreath silver medallettes from 330 (?) CE
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 11:51:46 am »
I note that above you said, "Condemnation only due to style and unpublished dies and sold by fake seller is error-prone." These are, however, precisely the most useful and likely methods of detecting fakes from modern dies.  I don't agree that it is especially error prone.  If we have all three elements, we can usually feel very comfortable that the coin is fake.

Condemnation should not be only based on style that is what I meant !
If there are other arguments too which speak for or against authentiticity they have to be considered.
The coin has to look as a whole good or bad.

Sometimes authentic coins have been condemned due to style which was different and from so far unknown artist or other aspects which were different from so far known authentic coins from this issue.
And some fake coins with very good ancient looking style were and are considered to be authentic (but they have other problems which condemn them as fakes, maybe impossible die links between emperors and mints and different times or pseudo hoards from every emperor several coins but all from the same obverse and reverse die, or adding always the same fakes in all new hoards no matter if such a coins in all this hoards make sense or not, or new pseudo hoards which are die linked to each others but no die links to authentic specimens and so on)

There should always speak more than 1 aspect for or against authenticity and the more arguments the better and more reliable.


To "Wreath silver medallettes", some of these were sold on ebay by fake sellers who only sold fakes from modern dies and so they can be coinsidered as very suspicious.

If there would not be any authentic example existing they would be complete fantasies which would be odd but possible, forgers orientate generally on already know coins, because they will be rather accepted as authentic as so far completely unknown types.

Completely unknown types will be checked and suspected more than so far know types.

But forgers do know that too and so sometimes it even speaks for authenticity that a coin is so different from all so far know because forgers try to decive and so they want to be as close as possible on original authentic coins as possible. 





 

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