Filing on edge means cast?

[arash p]

Hi Experts

I just purchased a coin that has obvious filing on its edge I bought it from a major auction so I am surprised how they missed. Does filing means the coin is cast? if not why would someone file the edge of a coin?

[Carausius]

Not necessarily cast.  An edge could be filed to hide a casting seam.  An edge could also be filed to make a coin fit into a jewelry bezel.  If the surfaces of your coin look suspicious (i.e. details not sharp, casting pearls or pits present), then post a picture of both sides, including weight, size and an expression of your particular concerns. 

[arash p]

Thanks Michael. But seems the file done modern not ancient I understand if file was looking old for ancients used it in jewelry but it looks fresh I don't think any modern person damages a coin to put in in jewelry
here is the image the weight is 3.0 gram

[djmacdo]

It is done regularly and much more often forty of so years ago when many coins were much cheaper.  Still more a hundred years ago--and all that filing would look modern.

[Joe Sermarini]

Is the filing all the way around.  I will guess it is not.  It is more likely genuine than cast. It appears to have some small edge cracks, if you know what an edge crack should look like, check them. A real crack is nearly impossible to replicate. 

If you notice in Forum's shop, in the description, we often note if there are edge cracks. I don't include them in descriptions only as a flaw, but also as an indicator of authenticity. 

[Nikola K]

Genuine coins may have filling marks from many other causes for example scraping or bad cleaning - I did this on few cheap coins by accident, scalpel left file like marks...

As written above filling is done to hide the seam and sometimes remains of a sprue. It can be only on a part of the coin. Forgers have become smarter, I have encountered cast coins that have the edges polished or cut with scissors to replicate the stealing of the silver that was done in past.

So if you encounter filling on part of the edge, a polished edge or a trimmed coin, you should look for other indicators it is a cast.

[Jay GT4]

Why not provide a picture of the edge?

[arash p]

Thanks you all .

@Joe, The filing appears on part of the edge but I should say I see some horizontal line on the edge also but the files section is I would say 1/5 of the edge .

@germania Magna This coin is really I feel is fake I contacted the dealer which is a very famous auction and I am surprised how such thing could slip through . This makes me nervous as one of main reason I purchase from these big auctions is to be sure of authenticity. I contacted them and seems they might be able to refund me they will finalize it tomorrow.  Even if we say its genuine but ex-jewelry still this should have been mentioned. The description should have said the edge is filed and I wouldn't bid on it.  So in any case I think I am fully entitled for a refund here (either as a cast or as mis-description)

I attached image of the edge.

[Joe Sermarini]

If you bought this coin from a reputable seller, the odds that it is fake are nearly zero. There is nothing very suspicious in any of the photos you have posted.

[arash p]

Thanks Joe. You asked if the file is all over edge or part of it may I know the difference in these cases for authenticity?

The reason for filing a fake is to remove the casting sprue and seam.  The seam will go all the way around. To remove the entire seam, the faker would have to file all the way around.  If there are parts of the edge that are not filed and that look normal, the filing is much less likely to indicate a fake.

[Jay GT4]

I agree with Joe, nothing seems out of the ordinary here.  It's actually a handsome coin.

[arash p]

Even if not cast having file edge reduces the value significantly the auction house should have mentioned it in description this is type of dishonesty an ethical dealer should have mentioned this. I contacted the auction house and they said they should see the coin but they did not promise to refund which is not nice at all!!! In this case, I am 100% on the right side and have all right to return.

[Joe Sermarini]

Not mentioning that in the description does not make them dishonest. They could have just missed it.  Most auction houses do not own the coins and only provided the service of conducting and administering auctions. For many sales are final with only extreme exceptions. Most coin auction houses ONLY accept returns for coins shown to be fake. Descriptions are never absolutely complete and may have errors (to err is human). You have the right to go the venue and inspect the items before sale. If you want to be able to return coins for small errors in descriptions, don't buy at auction. 

[arash p]

I agree inspecting before auction would be better but its virtually impossible for online auction as bid come from remote locations. I think all auctions should respect a return period same way as buy from dealers in [REMOVED BY ADMIN] to avoid these issues. Because many time seeing a coin in hand a buyer will find details like this. Also I think a filing has huge affect on price that is why it should be in description if I knew it has file I would not bid high. I mean I understand if they miss some minor details like a flan crack but missing to mention major file on edge is not something to be missed

[Germania Magna]

Below a pic of the coin discussed and underneath a variant which is beyond ANY doubt - stemming from an old collection.
What I like about this coin are the undubious signs of age and usage. But tastes might differ there, of course.  

[Joe Sermarini]

...I think all auctions should respect a return period same way as buy from dealers in [REMOVED BY ADMIN] to avoid these issues....

You should read their rules, and then choose to do business with them, or not. You should follow the rules as written. It is not fair to expect them to change their rules just for you.

[okidoki]

...I think all auctions should respect a return period same way as buy from dealers in [REMOVED BY ADMIN] to avoid these issues....

You should read their rules, and then choose to do business with them, or not. You should follow the rules as written. It is not fair to expect them to change their rules just for you.

+1

[arash p]

Below a pic of the coin discussed and underneath a variant which is beyond ANY doubt - stemming from an old collection.
What I like about this coin are the undubious signs of age and usage. But tastes might differ there, of course.  

@Germania I did not understood what the comparison conclusion is? Are you saying these 2 are from same die? I see some differences though. is the second one an authentic one?

[Germania Magna]

The second one truly is; it is from an old collection. They are not from the same die, indeed. I sent the pic to give a good base for judging authenticity; everyone must decide on their own, at the end.

[arash p]

Ok so does this prove it is fake then? If it was authentic it should have matched the one from old collection right?

[okidoki]

both are not fake

[Germania Magna]

No, of course different dies of the same coin must be expected. I`m just very glad that we still have reliable sources to judge authenticity at all.
You should respect the verdict of the majority.  Personally, I prefer coins which are NOT mint or close to it, because I fear sooner or later we get such coins from printers. ;-)

Coins, which have a very individual touch, coins which bear visible traces of history, so to speak.

But that is individual preference, to be frank.

[arash p]

Thanks Germania so you believe my posted coin is authentic too based on your analysis?

[Obryzum]

Another possible reason for filing is to remove traces of a mount.  I know because I just filed down a US $1 gold coin to eliminate the mount.  And to tell you the truth, the file marks look a whole lot better to me than the mount.  I would do it again. 

[Nikola K]

Ok so does this prove it is fake then? If it was authentic it should have matched the one from old collection right?

This is "the know the coin" part. You have to find the proof that the forger has made a mistake. It does not need to be matched to the old collection to be genuine, the new coins are found as we speak.

For the auction houses, I made the same mistake. I believed that they have the expertise, so I went straight to them. The truth is that the auction houses are essentially the same as any other dealer, there are good ones, bad ones and really ugly ones. You should spend some time in "know the dealer part".

The auction house guarantees that the item is authentic. This only means you can get your money back if you can prove that it is not genuine. Guarantees go from as little as 3 months to lifetime. Some will accept returns unconditionally within 14 days, some will not, some will threaten to send it to the expert of their choosing for the analysis. The loosing party will bear the costs of this analysis.

There are great auction houses that care about their reputation and will make it up for you in case of error, however there are some that just list the items, the more the better. If someone discovers forgery, they will refund the customer. There is really no loss to them in this model, except potential reputation hit.

So far I trust only 2-3 auction houses. The only seller I would trust unconditionally is FORVM (@Joe - we should talk business soon)

[Joe Sermarini]

[arash p]