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Author Topic: Crawford RRC Checklist?  (Read 1706 times)

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Offline PMah

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Crawford RRC Checklist?
« on: June 01, 2018, 09:31:06 pm »
I am trying to locate an editable Crawford RRC checklist file that is both complete AND not a gratuitous copyright violation.  Another way of putting it is, has anyone simply typed out the actual Crawford numbers into a spreadsheet?  No need for pictures, but denominations would be helpful.
  There are great Crawford-sequenced collections online, such as Andrew McCabe, but none complete and none that I found are simply a complete  numerical  list.  I have tried generating spreadsheets with basic sequence numbers, eg "CR 101/1, 101/2", etc., but many issues have just a few #s, and some have many #s,  plus lettered variants. So a basic spreadsheet would still require a lot of manual tweaking to conform to RRC.
  If no one has one, I'd attempt it as a long-term project.  Next winter....
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Offline Carausius

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 10:41:37 pm »
PMah,
Why do you need such a file?  Is it to avoid duplicate purchases, to make notes or for some other purpose?  I ask because there may be alternate methods to accomplish your goal.  For instance, if you just want to avoid buying duplicates, I'd recommend keeping a list (database) of your collection in Crawford order - that's far less daunting than typing all the series and denominations in checklist form and it accomplishes the same goal.. 

The only file that I keep that is even close to what you've asked for is a list of Crawford series numbers for management of dating theory, with columns for the various competing scholars (Crawford, Mesagne Hoard, Mattingly, Vecchi for aes grave, etc.).  It's not something I'd share, as it's a work in progress.  I add to it as I research new acquisitions.  It"s designed to save me repeating research steps every time I want to date a coin.

Offline PMah

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2018, 09:07:50 pm »
Thanks, Michael.  The goal is to have a complete numerical list that I can literally check off, specifically in a concise form that I can carry on a phone for quick reference.  My database is pretty useful as a collection tool, but it does not run on mobile devices. 

In any event, my database does not tell me what numbers should exist - for example, Cr 494 numbers and letters go into the dozens of denarii, earlier issues often run through 5 or so numbers for denarii and bronze fractions, and other issues have only type for the Cr number.  On top of that, the numbers do not inherently convey the denomination.  (None of this is news, of course.)

So one cannot generate a spreadsheet without manually conforming to the text, even in rough draft to save a bit of time, and I was hoping to coast on someone else's prior effort.  I was surprised that such a list was not readily available on line. 

I guess I have to type for a few hours instead of looking at my coins.
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Paul 

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Offline PMah

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2018, 09:22:06 pm »
Much more fun to look than type!  I decided to look at this one rather than start typing!, 
Crawford 261/1 Cn. Domitius Ahenobarbus
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Offline Carausius

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2018, 09:38:59 pm »
Nice Ahenobarbus!   I stand by my initial recommendation: a list of your current coins by their Crawford numbers would enable you to check whether you need any other Crawford number that you might come accross in trade.  It would be a  checklist of "omission" - if the coin isn't on your collection list, you need it.  Most databases will export such a list to Word or Excel, both formats that should be portable on a cell phone. 

If you opt to tackle the intensive checklist typing project, you'll want to add the various types that have been discovered since Crawford was published in 1974.  See,  Russo "Unpublished Roman Republican Bronze Coins" in Essays Hersh, for example.  Crawford alone will not be a complete list.  Good luck with whichever process you choose.

Offline Jordan Montgomery

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2018, 12:38:06 am »
PMah,

the American Numismatic Society has APIs at http://numismatics.org/crro/apis which allow querying of their CRRO project which has all coins listed by Crawford I believe and it is under an open license, meaning there are few restrictions on use of the data. With a bit of Python code I was able to generate a list of all 2295 of the types in the database in the following format:

RRC 1/1
RRC 355/1h
RRC 355/1g
RRC 355/1f
RRC 355/1e
RRC 355/1d
RRC 355/1b
RRC 355/1c
RRC 355/1a
RRC 349/1
RRC 97/4
RRC 97/5a
RRC 97/5b
RRC 97/5c
RRC 97/6a
RRC 97/6b
RRC 97/7a
RRC 97/7b
RRC 97/7c
RRC 97/8
RRC 97/9
RRC 98A/1a
RRC 98A/1b
RRC 98A/1c
RRC 98A/1d
RRC 98A/2

The results are not sorted(yet!) and I will have to add a bit more code to get information such as description, date range, etc. I believe I can get mint attributions and probably some other info as well. Let me know what sort of information you'd like and I'll see if I can code something more useful one night this week and generate a full list. If anyone is interested I can share the code used to generate the list as well.
Gallery of my collection with notes and discussion of Republican history and numismatics

Offline PMah

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2018, 11:17:18 pm »
Thanks, Jordan and Michael.  This is an interesting challenge (at least to me).  Traditional collecting is slow-paced and list-based.  But in 2018, even using my laptop seems like a chore compared to my phone.  My tablet is more the "hobby" device nowadays, but tablets and phones are not good spreadsheet displays..  I tried generating an Excel spreadsheet based on an average  RRC number sequence of x/1-4, and still ended up with the visual equivalent of a full "legal size" page of small font numbers and no direct correlation to the catalog.
 Michael 's omission method is probably best, but I tend to be 100% certain I have no Sulla gold but far less sure about Calpurnia denarii!
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Paul 

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Offline Carausius

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 08:13:24 am »
Michael 's omission method is probably best, but I tend to be 100% certain I have no Sulla gold but far less sure about Calpurnia denarii!


Memory should not be required.  The key to using the omission method is finding a way to sort your existing collection by Crawford number and in Crawford order and in an output that is readable on a cell phone. 

Offline Jordan Montgomery

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2018, 12:30:23 am »
It ended up being a bit more work than I expected due to some database errors and things found as my code was processing all the entries but I just finished V1 of the spreadsheet. You can find it here and should be able to view it and make your own copy within Google Docs, or export it to another format like Excel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lsnqGRxC-Ur07hs_fn1wPlxebCfU7kjlEX-GWsrQU-M/edit?usp=sharing

Note that this is entirely based upon the CRRO project and is all public information compiled, so far as I understand, in accordance with the licensing terms of the CRRO database. I believe it to be reasonably accurate to Crawford but have not yet added any of the new types or varieties from Goodman, RBW, Russo in Essays Hersh, McCabe's Anonymous Bronze paper, etc.

Also, if anyone would like the Python code used to create this, please send me a PM and I can share it with you.
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Offline PMah

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2018, 10:10:28 pm »
Very impressive work by Jordan; thanks very much.  This converted easily to Excel, and so can be used in many different ways.  The links are very helpful as well. 
Jordan captured the variations very clearly -- see, for example, RRC 41. 

Thanks again. 
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Paul 

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Offline akeady

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2018, 08:22:56 pm »
I made a web page of my RR coins in Crawford order - http://coins.uggool.net/TopPageRRCoins.html - just a list of links to the coin data on Tantalus - it was to stop me buying coins I already had.   That still happens as the list isn't up-to-date and only covers RR coins, so I need to finish it.   Someday, when I get time and motivation, there will be a proper SQL database with useful searches - the fields are there in Tantalus, but there isn't any way of searching for, e.g., all coins weighing between 3.0g and 4.0g minted before 100 BC.

For all of Crawford:

potdevin                                        - http://davy.potdevin.free.fr/Site/crawford1.html
Coins of the Roman Republic Online - http://numismatics.org/crro/results

list everything (I think!) and can be viewed from a 'phone.

ATB,
Aidan.

Offline PMah

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2018, 10:59:24 pm »
Great, thank you.  Avoiding unintentional duplication is also my goal!  (And, the opposite, to make sure I know when some moneyers were able to issue a variety of coins with significantly different types.)
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2018, 03:35:05 am »
It ended up being a bit more work than I expected due to some database errors and things found as my code was processing all the entries but I just finished V1 of the spreadsheet. You can find it here and should be able to view it and make your own copy within Google Docs, or export it to another format like Excel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lsnqGRxC-Ur07hs_fn1wPlxebCfU7kjlEX-GWsrQU-M/edit?usp=sharing

Note that this is entirely based upon the CRRO project and is all public information compiled, so far as I understand, in accordance with the licensing terms of the CRRO database. I believe it to be reasonably accurate to Crawford but have not yet added any of the new types or varieties from Goodman, RBW, Russo in Essays Hersh, McCabe's Anonymous Bronze paper, etc.

Also, if anyone would like the Python code used to create this, please send me a PM and I can share it with you.

This is very useful, thank you Jordan. I don't know what I'm going to use it for right now, but there could be the beginnings of a trend to use standardised descriptions (caveat: also meaning standardised reproduced errors, and standardised omission of key details such as legend varieties or control marks).

Offline Jordan Montgomery

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2018, 11:27:02 am »
It ended up being a bit more work than I expected due to some database errors and things found as my code was processing all the entries but I just finished V1 of the spreadsheet. You can find it here and should be able to view it and make your own copy within Google Docs, or export it to another format like Excel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lsnqGRxC-Ur07hs_fn1wPlxebCfU7kjlEX-GWsrQU-M/edit?usp=sharing

Note that this is entirely based upon the CRRO project and is all public information compiled, so far as I understand, in accordance with the licensing terms of the CRRO database. I believe it to be reasonably accurate to Crawford but have not yet added any of the new types or varieties from Goodman, RBW, Russo in Essays Hersh, McCabe's Anonymous Bronze paper, etc.

Also, if anyone would like the Python code used to create this, please send me a PM and I can share it with you.

This is very useful, thank you Jordan. I don't know what I'm going to use it for right now, but there could be the beginnings of a trend to use standardised descriptions (caveat: also meaning standardised reproduced errors, and standardised omission of key details such as legend varieties or control marks).

Andrew,

as you say, there are definitely some errors and omissions, in fact some coins were missing obverse or reverse descriptions entirely and in other cases the legends were listed as things like "???" which is obviously incorrect(NB: it seems most of these "?" legends stand for the value dots on bronzes). Some cast bronzes were listed as struck and vice-versa. I tried my best to fix the worst ones by having my import program report any listings where the file itself was incomplete and any cases where the data obviously didn't make sense(i.e. an ingot listed as "struck") but I haven't yet updated the shared version of the spreadsheet to account for all the little errors I've noticed here and there like small errors in inscriptions. I've been slowly fixing these small errors in my private version of the spreadsheet though and hopefully in a month or so I'll have more time to put towards this effort. If you or anyone else happen to run into any errors, please e-mail me and I'll do my best to get them fixed for the next public revision of this spreadsheet.

Also, your comment about control-marks has me wondering if it wouldn't be worthwhile to try and include some additional sheets on the main spreadsheet describing control-marks for various issues. I'll think about adding something like that to a future public revision of the spreadsheet.

-Jordan Montgomery
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 07:34:37 am »
Andrew,

as you say, there are definitely some errors and omissions, in fact some coins were missing obverse or reverse descriptions entirely and in other cases the legends were listed as things like "???" which is obviously incorrect(NB: it seems most of these "?" legends stand for the value dots on bronzes). Some cast bronzes were listed as struck and vice-versa. I tried my best to fix the worst ones by having my import program report any listings where the file itself was incomplete and any cases where the data obviously didn't make sense(i.e. an ingot listed as "struck") but I haven't yet updated the shared version of the spreadsheet to account for all the little errors I've noticed here and there like small errors in inscriptions. I've been slowly fixing these small errors in my private version of the spreadsheet though and hopefully in a month or so I'll have more time to put towards this effort. If you or anyone else happen to run into any errors, please e-mail me and I'll do my best to get them fixed for the next public revision of this spreadsheet.

Also, your comment about control-marks has me wondering if it wouldn't be worthwhile to try and include some additional sheets on the main spreadsheet describing control-marks for various issues. I'll think about adding something like that to a future public revision of the spreadsheet.

-Jordan Montgomery

This could be the basis of a non-copyright common text. We all have spreadsheets or databases and such like. Wouldn't it be nice to have standard descriptions that aren't evidently copied from sales catalogues.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Crawford RRC Checklist?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 08:21:30 am »
It could become a virtual second edition RRC  by adding the subsequently discovered coins, deleting subsequently disproven coins, and correcting dates and mints based on recent hoard scholarship.  It would be nice not to have to check 5 different resources for such updated information. 

 

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