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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  The Members' Gallery (Moderators: Robert_Brenchley, *Alex, Enodia)  |  Topic: Vespasian Cista mystica added! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Vespasian Cista mystica added!  (Read 13331 times)
quadrans
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« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2018, 12:26:51 pm »

I agree, great addition, Jay, I always, like the Ephesian styleWink Thumbs Up

Joe/Q.
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2018, 02:11:49 pm »

Thanks guys!
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« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2018, 03:46:25 pm »

The AVG in wreath type of Flavian denarii from Ephesus regularly shows an oak wreath on the reverse, as on the first coin illustrated below.

Jay's new acquisition, however, seems to show a laurel wreath rather than an oak wreath, exactly as on the "Rome mint for Syria" bronze of Vespasian also shown below, though the bronze type shows berries on stems which are omitted on Jay's coin, which I have added as the third coin below.

This seems to be a new variant, which should certainly be reported to Ian Carradice for inclusion in the revised edition of RIC II ! I find no mention of a laurel wreath in this type, on any of its numerous varieties, in RIC, RPC, or the Addenda to RPC published in 2006.

It is interesting that a succession of numismatists have seen Jay's coin without recognizing that it shows a new wreath variant on the reverse; they have all followed RIC and RPC and earlier standard works in calling the wreath an oak wreath. So Gorny & Mosch, in their auction catalogue of 2006 where, as far as we know, the coin first emerged; then CNG in their e-sale 433 of three weeks ago where Jay acquired the coin; then Jay himself in the description of the coin in his Forvm gallery; and finally I must not omit myself, for I must have glanced at the coin in the Gorny catalogue of 2006 and CNG's recent e-sale, but did not notice any difference in the wreath until Steve P, in the thread above, specifically but erroneously called it an oak wreath!
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2018, 04:12:05 pm »

" ... but did not notice any difference in the wreath until Steve P, in the thread above, specifically but erroneously called it an oak wreath!"

Hey Clay, I merely calls 'em like I sees 'em => Jay's coin description stated "AVG within oak wreath, ΘI monogram above ties"

... but hey, you're correct, it certainly does look like a laurel wreath rather than an oak wreath, eh?

Regardless, the coin rocks!

Cheers, fellas (have a great weekend)


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Jay GT4
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« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2018, 04:22:38 pm »

Well, that was quite enlightening.  To be honest I didn't give it a second thought. Once again for then second time in a row I took the dealers descriptions at face value.  It never occurred to me that there would be a laurel wreath rather than the standard oak.  Doing a quick acsearch it shows the typical oak even though in some cases it's called a laurel wreath.  None appear to actually show my laurel wreath type.

I will have to contact Carradice.

Thanks Curtis!

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« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2018, 04:34:57 pm »

Steve,

As I said, you are in eminent company with this error: Gorny & Mosch, CNG, Jay, myself.

If you hadn't happened to repeat the error in you post, who knows how many more decades it might have gone unnoticed!

As Eckhel said, we should forgive and even be grateful for the errors of our predecessors, because they often lead to corrections and progress!
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« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2018, 04:42:53 pm »

Thanks Steve!

I checked the rough draft of the RIC addenda and the laurel type for RIC 1399 is not in there.  I've  reached out to David Atherton to see if he has any thought on it.  The next step is to contact Carradice to see if he's interested.  In the meantime I've listed it as RIC 1399 unlisted variant.
 Exciting stuff!
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« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2018, 05:40:31 pm »

An email has been sent to Mr. Carradice
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« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2018, 06:50:12 am »

I certainly agree this is different enough to warrant a separate catalogue number, or at least a footnote! Congrats on an exceptional find Jay.
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« Reply #84 on: December 27, 2018, 04:34:21 pm »

While I await a response I submit another fantastic rarity.

Vespasian Group 3 denarius from Antioch, minted in 70 AD.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-152040

Typical for the type, the flan is rough but it still maintains a great high relief portrait and reverse.  A very Vitellian portrait too!  I'm happy to have it!
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« Reply #85 on: December 27, 2018, 04:37:23 pm »

Nice find, Jay,  Smiley Wink

Congratulation   Thumbs Up

Regards

 Q.
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« Reply #86 on: December 27, 2018, 08:29:03 pm »

Thanks Q!
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« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2018, 06:52:30 am »

Wow, Jay => man, that's a pretty cool addition (I like the portrait and the sweet Virtvs reverse!)

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« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2019, 02:11:17 pm »

Thanks!  Still no reply from Carradice but here is another rare (R2) Domitian added!

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-152423

It has a wonderful patina and is very bold in hand.  Minted in Rome for Syrian circulation it has the rare legend and bust facing left.
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« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2019, 03:13:42 pm »

Nice coin Jay, but unfortunately not that rare (I own two examples myself).

The left portrait - in this case - is far more common than the right one, and it's V 1579 (C), while V 1578 (R2) is the right one.

Fine ddition, in any case!

Alberto
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« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2019, 03:49:46 pm »

Ha!  I misread the attribution in RIC!  Thanks Alberto!
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« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2019, 04:06:29 pm »

Ha!  I misread the attribution in RIC!  Thanks Alberto!
It occurred many times to me too!
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2019, 09:19:59 pm »

A scarcer type from Bruttium added today:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-152596

Stylistically this type has a different looking Zeus and the warrior on the reverse has grapes as a control mark.  Interesting type and style from the 2nd Punic wars!
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« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2019, 09:52:01 am »

Awesome new addition ... love the grapes and I love the sweet patina (great eye-appeal)

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Jay GT4
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« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2019, 02:16:52 pm »

I already have a decent Tiberius denarius:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-100283


but the price was right so I ended up getting another:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-152662
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« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2019, 02:38:11 pm »

Nice addition Jay. One cannot have too many of these.
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2019, 06:47:06 am »

Thanks Andrew, I'll probably give it to someone as a gift or sell it.  I have another Tiberius denarius on the way too....what am I doing?  Huh Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: January 26, 2019, 06:36:18 pm »

I've wanted one of these big Republican Janus/Prow's for a long time. Finally found a good one at a great price and with a great provenance! These big coins are usually pretty worn since they circulated for so long. This one still retains a lot of it's original detail and hasn't fallen victim to the dreaded tooling so common on these. It's an Ex-RBW duplicate coin and ex-Peus, auction 330 from 1991. Having a good provenance is becoming increasingly important on these.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-152919

I'd love to see if this coin is illustrated anywhere.  I've tried to track it down online searching the RBW collection but no matches.  Even tried Andrew McCabe's web page.  Anyone have a catalog they could check?

Thanks everyone.
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« Reply #98 on: January 26, 2019, 09:15:36 pm »

Nice pick-up, Jay.  I have most of the catalogs that RBW coins moved through, and I don't see that exact one.
 CNG had 2 specimens of that type from that collection as individual lots.  Yours may be a bit nicer.  Good centering. 

I do not have that one myself, although you "made me look".  Now, of course, I have to look for them harder.....
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #99 on: January 26, 2019, 09:29:37 pm »

Thanks for looking Pmah, I appreciate it.

I'm hoping someonen has the Peus catalog
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  The Members' Gallery (Moderators: Robert_Brenchley, *Alex, Enodia)  |  Topic: Vespasian Cista mystica added! « previous next »
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