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Author Topic: What do you think the odds of this....  (Read 1223 times)

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Offline Chance Vandal

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What do you think the odds of this....
« on: March 01, 2018, 04:32:54 pm »
Would this be very unusual that they are such a perfect match?  The Zeus side is a match also.  Price 3667 doesn't come up that often either. None in CNG for example.

Offline Carausius

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Re: What do you think the odds of this....
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2018, 05:20:05 pm »
If they are a die match, then all devices should match.  If they are a die match at or near the same die state, then die wear and die breaks will also match.  What should NOT precisely match are flan shape, surface damage and other non-die characteristics that are individual to hand struck coins.  

Other than these generalities, I don't know enough about the number of known dies of this particular Price # to advise whether a die match is a likely event or whether this style is consistent with known, genuine coins.  For that sort of advice here, you should post full photos of both sides of the coin.

In this case, it would certainly be important to determine whether the damage near the eye is a die break or a post-minting surface issue (i.e. a bankers mark). A common die break is expected among die matched coins.  

Offline OldMoney

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Re: What do you think the odds of this....
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 06:03:06 pm »
FYI
You really need to show ALL of the coin, not just a tiny part of it. Both sides, too!
(also, weights and diameter).

From what little you show, they do appear to be a match (as far as one can tell).
You can do comparisons by using an image programme and overlaying one on top
the other and confirming that everything matches - or not!

Die matches may be encountered with any issue of coins, some more often than
others (depending on a number of factors). eg: the smaller the number of coins
that were struck for a particular issue, using the fewest number of dies, the more
likely that they will have been struck by the same dies.

Here is a link that may be of some assistance:
http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.3667

Walter
Coins of Ephesus
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Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Chance Vandal

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Re: What do you think the odds of this....
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 08:34:50 pm »
Here they are

Offline n.igma

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Re: What do you think the odds of this....
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2018, 08:53:22 pm »
Conservative estimate of obverse die productivity is 20,000 coins/die.

Survival rates typically average 1:3,000 to 1:5,000.

Therefore its not at all unusual to find 4-6 coins from the same obverse die.

This is more than confirmed in the Babylon Series by Nancy Waggoner's die study where in some cases more than 20 coins from the same obverse die paired to up to sixteen different reverse dies from from as many Price issues are recorded, indicative of massive parallel striking on as many as sixteen anvils.

Refer: Waggoner, N. M. The Alexander mint at Babylon. Ph.D. Dissertation., Columbia University, 1968.

So the short answer to your question regarding the odds of this happening .... quite high!
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: What do you think the odds of this....
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2018, 09:00:09 pm »
A die study from another Babylonian mint a little more than decade later illustrates multiple example of more than ten coins from the same obverse die...

https://www.academia.edu/29221012/From_Triparadeisos_to_Ipsos_Seleukos_I_Nikators_Uncertain_Mint_6A_in_Babylonia
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: What do you think the odds of this....
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2018, 09:21:06 pm »
Found my copy of Waggoner's study. She records 15 coins from the same obverse die (Waggoner die 39) as that of the coins you post. It is reverse die linked to another six obverse dies. The die is paired to 10 different reverse types i.e. different Price sequence numbers.


As I said.... the chances of this happening are quite high. It is nothing out of the ordinary.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: What do you think the odds of this....
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2018, 10:57:59 pm »
The current CNG electronic auction has two occurrences of obverse die matches.

Lots 305 and 306 are Eastern imitations of Alexander III tetradrachms with the same obverse die, while lots 308 through 311 are four different tetradrachms sharing another identical obverse die.

So like others have stated, it certainly can...and apparently does....happen.

 

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