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Author Topic: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?  (Read 3980 times)

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Chris K3

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Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« on: February 12, 2018, 11:03:09 pm »
I have this coin and after looking at 100's of images, it seems pretty clear that it is a Salonina coin with (maybe) a Juno reverse - coin isn't great.  What throws me is that after looking on this site, Wildwinds, and a few others, I cannot find one image of a Salonina coin that has a title with an "M" in it or at least one with an "M" at the 1:00 position.  I could not find any other coin bust image that looked anything like this one so I'm a little bit at a loss for a final ID.
    Thanks much - Chris

Offline Pekka K

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 02:03:58 am »

Try Julia Mamaea.

Pekka K

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 06:04:28 pm »
Well that certainly has an "M" in it!  However all the coins that I see attributed to her (on one website) are either silver or at least 28 mm (this one is 19 on the longest end so it "might" have been 25mm, but that would be pushing it).

However, thanks for the pointer - I'll keep looking!

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 06:27:15 pm »
Found a coin that is very similar, close to same diameter, but still silver and the "M" doesn't line up with her hairline.  However, it is very clearly her in my coin so I'm on the right trail I think.

Issue 12
VENVS V - I - CTRIX
Venus stg half-left or front hd. l. holding helmet and sceptre, at feet l. shield.
RSC 76; BMCRE 713-7; RIC 358


Offline djmacdo

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 08:00:46 pm »
The portrait even looks like Julia Mamaea rather than Salonina and the style is a better fit for the earlier date also.  Note the coin is struck on a flan smaller than the die, which may account for any difference in diameter.

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2018, 10:13:19 pm »
what about it not being silver?  The Numismatics website has this coin as 50% silver.  My coin is - not - silver at all.

Happened upon this page - http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/artwork/5681 - I believe that it is this exact coin.  Exact diameter and weight (although mine is a few tenths lighter since it is not whole).  Same images.  Lettering is in the right place.

The only problem I have is again - it isn't silver.  Unless silver turns mud black in 1900 yrs...?

Offline BiancasDad

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 12:56:03 am »
I see the reverse goddess holding scales and am inclined to think that this is actually a provincial issue.

A quick search shows a few examples with a similar reverse at Deultum, Thrace. However, I can't seem to make out enough of the reverse legend to confirm.

Maybe this will spur someone else on into finding the correct city/reference.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 11:20:20 am »
We need a larger, clearer image of the reverse.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 03:02:24 pm »
I see the reverse goddess holding scales and am inclined to think that this is actually a provincial issue.

Hi folks,

I agree that there is a good chance that it is a provincial issue. That was my first impression also.

Meepzorp

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 03:04:50 pm »
Hi folks,

Could the reverse figure be Aequitas?


Meepzorp

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 06:22:14 pm »
These photos were taken with my iPhone and appear to be the limits of its capability.  Fully realize you guys are being very helpful.  Efforting better pictures of the coin.

Looking through another image database, I think the reverse may be Demeter similar to this one- http://www.akropoliscoins.com/ElagabalusMarcDemeter_small.jpg - "Demeter standing left, holding corn ears and scepter". 

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2018, 07:24:46 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 14, 2018, 03:04:50 pm
Could the reverse figure be Aequitas?

Yes, since she holds scales as Bianca's Dad noticed, and since the legend on the left is definitely [AE]QVITA..., the Q being alongside the outer pan of her scales.

The coin will be an ancient counterfeit of a denarius, explaining why it is in base metal not silver, its obverse copying Julia Mamaea, its reverse copying the type of an uncertain emperor. Certainly no official coins were ever struck for Julia Mamaea with an Aequitas reverse. A slight problem is caused by the fact that the goddess on Ctwink's coin appears to hold a scepter not a cornucopia in her left hand, since according to Schmidt-Dick's Typenatlas the type of Aequitas with scepter was only used up to the time of Antoninus Pius, and in later appearances, for example under Severus Alexander, she always carried a cornucopia rather than scepter as second attribute.
Curtis Clay

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2018, 08:41:51 pm »
Sorry this is the best I can do.  Our cameras are not good for close in photography and I'm an engineer not an artist...  I did enhance the pictures as best as I could.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2018, 08:28:22 am »
Great photos!  A bronze coin with heavy patina, not silver.  Latin language.  No SC in field.  Decent portrait, awkward style on reverse.  Likely a provincial coin from a city with the status of a Roman colony.  I cannot make out much of the reverse legend.  I hope someone else can do better.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2018, 09:26:52 am »
David,

Have you overlooked my last post, in which I proposed that the rev. type is certainly Aequitas, since she holds scales and scepter and the rev. legend clearly begins [AE]QVITA...?

Quote from: Meepzorp on February 14, 2018, 03:04:50 pm
Could the reverse figure be Aequitas?

Yes, since she holds scales as Bianca's Dad noticed, and since the legend on the left is definitely [AE]QVITA..., the Q being alongside the outer pan of her scales.

The coin will be an ancient counterfeit of a denarius, explaining why it is in base metal not silver, its obverse copying Julia Mamaea, its reverse copying the type of an uncertain emperor. Certainly no official coins were ever struck for Julia Mamaea with an Aequitas reverse. A slight problem is caused by the fact that the goddess on Ctwink's coin appears to hold a scepter not a cornucopia in her left hand, since according to Schmidt-Dick's Typenatlas the type of Aequitas with scepter was only used up to the time of Antoninus Pius, and in later appearances, for example under Severus Alexander, she always carried a cornucopia rather than scepter as second attribute.
Curtis Clay

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 05:39:25 pm »
Admittedly I have no idea what I am talking about, but that link I posted above of an Elegabalus coin with a reverse of Demeter seems like a better fit than a weird Aequitas since the left and right arms go out from the body at the same height?  Just throwing that out to the experts.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 05:42:52 pm »
Well, Curtis is the expert so his opinion holds a lot of weight.  He's forgotten more about ancient coins then most of us will ever know.  

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 06:07:53 pm »
Admittedly I have no idea what I am talking about, but that link I posted above of an Elagabalus coin with a reverse of Demeter seems like a better fit than a weird Aequitas since the left and right arms go out from the body at the same height?  Just throwing that out to the experts.

Can't you see the scales, and read QVITA from 8 to 11 o'clock on the reverse of your coin?
Curtis Clay

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 06:23:25 pm »
Curtis -
    Your comment made me laugh out loud - "Can't you read/see..."  That was really funny!  ;-)
    I've been collecting coins - officially - for about 1 month and these are the first Roman coins I've ever had that looked like more than just a lump of non-descript metal so actually I couldn't because I don't know what to look for.  That being said, now that you point it out, I can see where the scale is in her right hand and the words QVITA on the edge.  That's really cool - thanks!  I'm glad I found this site.  You guys are great.

    I had looked at a bunch of Aequitas reverses previously, but hadn't seen that I thought looked right - either the arms were at the wrong angle or the staff wasn't long enough or some combination of both.  I guess I assumed there was a limited number of possible combinations (again since I'm a newb on the subject).

    So how do the "provincial" coins work?  Someone made a cast of old denarius obverse, slapped a different reverse on it, made a "contraband" bronze coin and life was good?
    Thanks again - Chris

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 06:31:48 pm »
Your coin is not a provincial coin, but rather an ancient counterfeit copying the obv. and rev. types of imperial denarii, and meant to pass for a denarius, though it contained no silver or very little compared to the approx. 50% silver of the mint denarii.
Curtis Clay

Chris K3

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 06:34:33 pm »
ok - sounds good.

Would it still have been made during the regency of Julia Mamaea or would have just been made at "anytime"?  I suppose you can counterfeit at any time as long as that type of coin is still in circulation - right?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Salonina Coin? But Why Is There An "M" At 1:00 On The Obverse?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 06:53:01 pm »
Correct.

In 238, however, Balbinus and Pupienus re-introduced the antoninianus (double denarius), which thereafter became the dominant silver coin in circulation. After that date, one might have expected the counterfeiter to copy antoniniani, though there were still plenty of denarii in circulation at least until 251, when Trajan Decius and Trebonianus Gallus undertook an operation to withdraw those old denarii and overstrike them as antoniniani!
Curtis Clay

 

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