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Author Topic: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin  (Read 3406 times)

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Offline peterpil19

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Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« on: January 11, 2018, 06:00:15 pm »
Dear All,

I was pleased to acquire this sestertius of Julia Domna recently. It is a Banti plate coin. It is an overall pleasing coin that would have interested me anyway and I do not think I paid much of a premium over what it would have been worth, otherwise.

I do not own Banti. If anyone has a scan of the plates on which this coin is found, I would be most grateful.

Peter


Julia Domna, struck under Caracalla; Rome mint; AE Sestertius; Orichalcum; 211-217 AD; Obverse: IVLIA PIA FELIX AVG, Bust of Julia Donna, draped, right; hair elaborately waived in nearly vertical waves, with seven horizontal ridge, fastened in a small bun at back and queue on neck; Reverse: IVNONI LV CINAE, Juno, draped, seated left, holding flower in extended right hand and child in swadling clothes at breast on left arm; S C in exergue; 31.80mm, 23.55 g, 12h; Banti 26 (this coin illustrated); RIC IV [Caracalla] 586; BMCRE IV [Caracalla] 211 (same reverse die as plate 74, 1); Cohen IV 93

Offline mix_val

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 06:03:19 pm »
Bob Crutchley
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 06:12:22 pm »
Always nice to have a plate coin!

Offline quadrans

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 06:24:17 pm »
Anyway, nice coin, Peter,   :) ;) +++

Q.
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Offline peterpil19

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 02:50:35 am »
Thank you all for your comments.

Peter

Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2018, 12:17:05 pm »
A great score.

Offline okidoki

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2018, 12:27:28 pm »
GREAT looking obverse
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline OldMoney

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 08:38:31 pm »
Great coin!
I do like the longer obverse legend as well.

Walter
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Offline peterpil19

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2018, 01:52:54 am »
Thank you for your comments.
I agree Walter, longer obverse legends are more interesting!

Peter

Offline stevex6

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 08:18:55 am »
peter => congrats on scoring the sweet new sestertius

 +++

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2018, 02:25:31 pm »
Nice and rare coin, that I know well!

Presumably you got it from CNG E411, 13 Dec. 2017, lot 406? Their description calls it a Banti plate coin, and also gives two other provenances:

Ex R. D. Frederick Collection (Classical Numismatic Group Electronic Auction 290, 7 November 2012), lot 410;

Thomas Olive Mabbott Collection (Part V, Hans M. F. Schulman, 7 July 1970), lot 485.

Mabbott was a famous collector, so a provenance worth recording!

I believe the dealer Christian Blom bought the coin at that 1970 Schulman sale; soon thereafter, I bought it from Blom.

However this coin was left over when I sold the Severan and later coins from my first collection to the BM in 1991, since the BM already had two examples of it (BMC p. 469, 211-2). Eventually I sold it to Harlan Berk, who put it in his Buy or Bid Sale 129, 24 Oct. 2002, lot 311, whence it was presumably purchased by R.D. Frederick, whose collection CNG sold in 2012.

Unfortunately my copy of Banti is packed away in a box, so I can't confirm that he illustrates this coin. If so (and there is certainly no reason to doubt CNG's word!), presumably Banti just reproduces the photo from the 1970 Hans Schulman sale.

My note on this sestertius from Berk 129 of 2002:

"Rare variant. This reverse type was common with obverse legend IVLIA AVGVSTA late in the reign of Septimius Severus, but was only continued in a single reverse die, that of our coin, with the new PIA FELIX legend of the joint reign of Caracalla and Geta."
Curtis Clay

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 11:39:45 pm »
Curtis,

Thank you for the additional provenance information!

I am pleased to discover that this coin was once considered worthy of your own personal collection. I should owe thanks to the British Museum for not taking this one off your hands when it had the opportunity to do so!

Peter

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 11:51:10 am »
I can confirm the Banti plate shows the same coin but the image there is not all that great.  The text provided no information except that Banti was only aware of one specimen.  It quotes the Schulman sale so I assume the image was a clip from that catalog.  eMail scan sent.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 01:23:53 pm »
Before we create a rush on used book sellers: I Grandi bronzi imperiali by Alberto Banti is 9 thin books numbered as 4 volumes showing sestertii and medallions but not smaller AE or other metals.  The format places two coins per page with much white space and liberal use of 'like the above' in Italian and actual size images cut from auction catalogs which vary widely in quality.  A few rare items are shown as line drawings when the author failed to find a sale for the coin.  I only bought one book (IV-1) which includes Septimius through Diadumenian.  I bought mine for $131.39 from NFA in 1992 and consider it one of the lesser bargains in my coin career.  While the book is primarily in Italian, it has English subtitles and is fully useable by those with no Italian language skills.  I am perhaps a bit hard on books illustrated with clip art.  The listing is by Cohen and adds little information except for an occasional note, for example, pointing out which ones are known also as Cavinos. 

In 1992, books like this seemed important to me but the online resources available today from dealers like CNG and compilations like acsearch make the book now seem more of a collectible itself rather than a item for daily reference.

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=221279

or




Offline peterpil19

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 05:18:27 pm »
Hi Doug,

Thanks for sending me the scanned plate!

Why do you think vendors still cite Banti from time to time? Was it popular reference at the time you bought your copy?

Peter

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 06:24:04 pm »
People like reference numbers so providing them sells coins.  Before Internet search we relied on picture books.  You should be aware of your coin's status as 'plate coin' but the rest of us probably will find more on that type using the words or more common references.
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s7115.html#RIC_0586[carac]
http://www.coinproject.com/search_common.php?global_keyword=domna+586&submit=submit

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 07:26:16 pm »
The Banti books are still useful as sources of material, because they assemble in one place many photographs of many coin types, quite often dozens of images per type. The images mostly derive from hundreds of old auction catalogues and lists, most of which are from before 2000 so were never published electronically and are accordingly missing from the available internet databases. I think Banti also reproduces his own photographs of coins in two important, largely unpublished Italian public collections, Florence and Rome, National Museum, Gnecchi Collection.

I wouldn't use Banti as a standard catalogue to cite, however, because he provides no images of many types which are indeed illustrated elsewhere, because of his alphabetical arrangement of the coin types and generally superficial approach, and finally because relatively few collectors own his books, so would be able to personally check citations from them.

Curtis Clay

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 03:23:00 am »
The Banti books are still useful as sources of material, because they assemble in one place many photographs of many coin types, quite often dozens of images per type.

I wouldn't use Banti as a standard catalogue to cite, however, because he provides no images of many types which are indeed illustrated elsewhere, because of his alphabetical arrangement of the coin types and generally superficial approach, and finally because relatively few collectors own his books, so would be able to personally check citations from them.


This is the case with Banti's Republican set but my only volume of the Grand Bronze set is 4-1 and the only multiple images he shows are where he lists a variation ignored by the standard works.  He separates, for example, the Septimius Consecratio coins by which tiers are decorated and separates listings for the Domna Venus from the rear on whether there is drapery hanging over the column (as described in BMC but not shown on their plate and ignored by RIC).  In no case is there a second image for one Banti number. 

Perhaps we can agree that it would be better to cite Banti only where his listing adds a variation not in the more common works. 

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 04:57:11 am »
Just for interest, here is the number of search results in acsearch for each of the following references.  Not exactly a precise measure for a number of reason, but close enough for to show the relative dependance on each by auction houses:

RIC 382,410

BMC 183,332

Cohen 32,724

Banti 6,304

Hunter 4,631


Offline David Atherton

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2018, 11:29:39 pm »
Superb coin Peter! It being a plate coin is an added bonus!

Offline peterpil19

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2018, 11:37:16 pm »
Thank you David,

That is high praise coming from you!

Peter

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Julia Domna Sestertius COTD - Banti Plate Coin
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2018, 02:58:34 pm »
In no case is there a second image for one Banti number.

I had forgotten that the Banti books illustrate just one specimen of each variant. That of course considerably reduces their usefulness as sources of material!

Cayon's books on Roman sestertii may help fill that gap: they often illustrate duplicate specimens, like the earlier Banti-Simonetti volumes covering the Republic and Augustus to Nero.

Curtis Clay

 

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