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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderators: AlexB, quadrans)  |  Topic: My medieval Hungarian Albums 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: My medieval Hungarian Albums  (Read 4437 times)
Stkp
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« on: December 31, 2017, 04:17:50 pm »

I just added two medieval Hungarian coins to my gallery. Both are obulii (is that the correct plural of obulus?) struck by Béla IV (1235-1270). Neither is the most attractive example of the type, but neither is a common coin and I was happy to acquire them:

Huszár 302, Unger 226, Réthy I 238, Frynas H.18.14, Adamovszky A363
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142544

Huszár 309, Unger 232, Réthy I 245, Frynas H.18.20, Adamovszky A371
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142545

Happy New Year everybody
Stkp

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Edward D
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2017, 07:46:07 pm »

They are both very nice and quite scarce. Thumbs Up
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quadrans
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 04:18:41 am »

Great acquisition both  laugh Wink Smiley Thumbs Up

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Stkp
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 07:47:46 am »

Thank you both. It is great that this site has attracted a "handful" of dedicated collectors of medieval Hungarian coinage. Stkp
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Stkp
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2018, 08:45:24 pm »

I just added two medieval Hungarian coins to my gallery:

A groshen issued by Matthias Corvinus for the city of Breslau as king of Bohemia. Huszár 733.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-143156

A denar issued by Wladislau I from the city of Buda. Huszár 605. The coin is interesting because a good amount of silver wash remains.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-143155

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quadrans
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2018, 11:23:22 pm »

Hi Stkp,

Great groschen from Mátyás/ Breslau.   Thumbs Up

Not easy to find a good well struck example from the Wladlslau I.

Both are great.   Thumbs Up

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Stkp
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2018, 09:34:52 am »

Thank you
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Edward D
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2018, 09:53:37 am »

Nice coins,especially the groschen. Thumbs Up
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Stkp
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2018, 11:20:32 am »

I was very happy to find the groschen. I didn't buy all that much this year at the NYINC but this was the most memorable of what I got there. Stkp
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quadrans
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2018, 01:39:08 pm »

Nice find as I mentioned.  Wink Thumbs Up

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Stkp
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 09:39:36 am »

I just added an obulus of Béla IV (1235-1270) to my gallery.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-143409
The only reference that pinpoints the issuance of the coin to specific years within Béla's reign is Gyöngyössy. I have questions/concerns about that chronology. Any thoughts?
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quadrans
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 12:58:25 pm »

Dear Steve,

 At first nice coin, congratulation,  Thumbs Up

About the chronology:

It is interesting why Gyöngyössy gives that date, he is a good academic people, but the speculation this chronology is stimulating so many questions, which are not clear yet.

About Reference:

The book from Adamovszky is not the best reference book at all, neither academic. But a well-made picture book about Árpád's money, but no more, and including so many mistakes.

Better to use Réthy, Huszár, or Unger Pohl...including Gyöngyössy.

Best regards

Joe
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Stkp
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2018, 04:15:01 pm »

Quote from: quadrans on January 28, 2018, 12:58:25 pm
About the chronology:
It is interesting why Gyöngyössy gives that date, he is a good academic people, but the speculation this chronology is stimulating so many questions, which are not clear yet.

About Reference:
The book from Adamovszky is not the best reference book at all, neither academic. But a well-made picture book about Árpád's money, but no more, and including so many mistakes.
Better to use Réthy, Huszár, or Unger Pohl...including Gyöngyössy.

Thanks, Joe.

I've noticed that Gyöngyössy gives dates that differ from the other references frequently and often wonder about his sources for those dates. I do use Réthy, Huszár, Unger and Pohl -- as well as Frynas and Adamovszky. I was disappointed by Adamovszky. I knew nothing about him, but upon learning that a new catalog had been published, I made sure to get it. Frynas was also a disappointment. I also try to use Kovács, but translating of his text using Google Translate is very tedious and does not come out well, in any event.

I have updated the first album of my medieval Hungarian collection (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2244) to include all references, and will again update when your book is published.

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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2018, 04:27:47 pm »

Hi Steve,

It is a good news you have Kovacs book, he is more up to date the historical background nowadays, but unfortunately, it is Hungarian and sophisticated Smiley.
Real Academic Work (He's Academic thesis !).

Regards

Joe
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2018, 04:53:06 pm »

I like Kovacs -- at least when I can understand it! Stkp
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2018, 07:31:51 pm »

I just added a denar issued by St. László/Ladislaus I (1077-1095); Huszár 25, Unger 20, Réthy I 31, Frynas H.8.6, Adamovszky A36, Kovács pp.146-1470:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144224
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2018, 11:18:37 pm »

Hi Stkp,

Nice coin. The brockage makes it all the more interesting too.

Peter
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2018, 07:40:07 am »

Great Coin Steve,  Thumbs Up

... but not the brockage, if you look closer you can recognize the reverse characteristic...
This kind of coins at this time has a very simple and schematic reverse.

Regards

 Joe

p.s.

You can see in my "St. Ladislaus" coins in my Gallery :

 http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3916
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Stkp
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2018, 08:49:26 am »

Thank you Joe and Peter. My collection is “light” on the coins of the earliest Arpadian kings, and I was happy to acquire this one.

Joe, you understand these coins much better than I do. Even so, I don’t believe that I am mistaken about the reverse of my coin. I attach for ease of reference a photo of my coin (above) with the line diagram from Rethy (below). The reverse of the type is very simple; a central cross with wedges between its arms, surrounded by a line border, surrounded by the decaying legend (+LADISLAUS RE). However, note the following features of the reverse of my coin:
a.   The entire reverse design of my coin is incuse and not raised (this is often difficult to tell from a photo);
b.   The outline of the long cross from the obverse is visible on the reverse, more clearly on the 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock axis;
c.    There are small crosses between the cross arms (as on the obverse) rather than wedges;
d.   The letters are the mirror image of the obverse, and run counterclockwise (starting at 3 o’clock. Note the red arrow on both the obverse and the reverse pointing to the letter L in the first quadrant; the blue arrow pointing to the letter I in the second quadrant, and the green arrow pointing to the letter S in the third quadrant (the S is retrograde on the obverse but not on the reverse).
If I am mistaken, please let me know. If so, I stand corrected, and defer to your expertise. I have come across many other coins issued by the earliest Arpadian kings (especially by St. Laszlo) that appear to be brockages. I do not understand why this is so, but this tendency disappears by the time of Kalman (which have reverses that are similarly simple). I would love to have a better understanding of that which I see.

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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2018, 09:09:39 am »

Joe,

Looking through your gallery, I see at least the following two St. Laszlo’s on which portions of the obverse appear to be impressed into the reverse, without obliterating the entire reverse design:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-115849
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-105423

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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2018, 01:14:28 pm »

Dear Steve,

My English is not the best one..., but I try to explain.  

What is the basic concept the "incuse" and/or the "brockage" coins, ...

In my opinion, if we try to strike the coin and unfortunately one coin remain not removed from ..., and the second coin tile lying over the first coin and strike again ..., the result will be the brockage and/or incuse coin.

In our cases, St. Ladislaus coin is different because the reverse negative picture coming from the "suction effect" of the striking because the coin plate is very thin and that caused the negative shape on the reverse side.
The reverse simple characteristic form is there, but very simple and schematic.

It always happens if we used a very thin plate...

like this :

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-131059

or this :

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-107118

etc..

Regards

Joe

p.s.:
The brockage coins never has real revers only obvers/avers negative picture on the reverse side..

Joe
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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2018, 02:11:03 pm »

Joe,

Your English is more than sufficient to convey the concept (and much better than my virtually non-existent Hungarian). Given that the phenomenon that I described as a “brockage” (I’ll call it a “brockage-like-effect” for want of a better term) is very common on certain emissions but does not exist on others, it makes logical sense that the effect must be caused by a regular minting process, and not by random minting errors.

My coin is indeed very thin, as are the other types on which the brockage-like-effect can be regularly observed (this is true both for the earliest coins of the Arpadian kings on which I was focusing and on the late 12th century coins to which you point).

If I understand you correctly, the phenomenon is caused when the metal from the flan is forced by the strike into the obverse die. Since the flan is so very thin, the contour of the obverse design appears in mirror image on the reverse. This is not because the reverse was struck by the obverse of a coin that remained in the die (as would be the case with a true brockage), but because the metal of the too-thin flan “follows” the contours of the obverse die – a “suction” effect, as you called it. I wonder whether there is a numismatic term to describe this process?

Thank you for the explanation. I am a student of the coinage. Given the dearth of medieval Hungarian collectors in the United States and the dearth of dealers who regularly handle or take an interest in this coinage here, I am essentially self-taught, and learn in a vacuum based on my own observations. This discussion board is a valuable tool. You have clarified an esoteric question that I have wondered about for a long time. I greatly appreciate your explanation.

Steve
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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2018, 02:26:22 pm »

Hi Steve,

I'm glad I could help,
Friendship.

Joe  Smiley Wink
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Stkp
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2018, 02:59:16 pm »

I recently added four medieval Hungarian coins, issued by Sigismund of Luxembourg () to my gallery. Three are ducats, the other is a parvus:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-147403
If I am reading the mintmark correctly, it is not recorded in any of the catalogs

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-147402

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-147401

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-147400

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« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2018, 07:49:04 am »

Hi Steve,
Nice group Smiley

I recognized a bit late because of the last two week's I was on the way...

Regards
 Joe
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