Was the loss at the Library at Alexandria the ancient world's greatest tragety?

[Dk0311USMC]

Was the loss of all the knowledge of the known world and ancient worlds (even to them at the time) the greatest tragedy of all time?   I don't mean a tragedy on the scale of human lives lost, but a tragedy of knowledge of how much we could have know today about the ancient world had all those scrolls and archives been preserved throughout history.  Even current conspiracies such as Atlantis, might be able to be solved or known with a few more piece to every puzzle.

Danny

[JBF]

How about the collapse of the Mycenaean/Minoan system?

On the other hand, without the collapse, one would not have the rebirth of Archaic/Classical Hellenic culture.  Without the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, one would not have the Renaissance.

What would you like to read from the library of Alexandria?  I mean, a lot of people bemoan the destruction of the Library, but often they don't have a habit of reading the ancient literature that we have, let alone things that we don't have.  Of course, by read I mean most likely in translation.  I would suggest some of Aristotle's Constitutions of [city-states], the only one we have is the Constitution of Athens found in the desert.  Something I would like to read, but probably did not even make it to the Library is the
"chapter" of Herodotus' Histories, that was on Babylon, similar probably to his Egyptian chapter.

We have lists of titles from the library, but there was a lot of attrition in manuscripts even before the beginning of the Library,  In "The World of Odysseus" by Finley, he says that according to titles listed, half of Euripides plays did not survive until the beginning of the library.  Euripides was a younger contemporary with Socrates who died in 399 BC.  The Library was started by Ptolemy??? around 310 BC(??).  We can tell this by lists of Euripides plays, and lists of Euripides plays in the library, half of them didn't make it down less than 100 years later.

[Dk0311USMC]

 Not sure I would be doing the reading myself but our understating of many ancient civilizations and cultures could be better whith that knowledge. There were probably scrolls that perished that were ancient even to the library's time that we don't even know existed. Much of pre written history might have been discussed and known better about since it was the hub of knowledge and understanding at the time. So much that was written of importance was drawn to that location for study.  The the question of what I would want to know is a difficult one because we won't even know what could have been known. I would likely read books by scholars today that would have interpreted and formed a better understanding of a lot of past civilizations like Atlantis for example. How much possibly were they an advance society or not or if it really even existed at all. Even if some of the information was just a fraction or peace of a puzzle that today's archeologists or scholars could use.

[Molinari]

I'd be interested to read more of the commentary of Zenodotus on the Iliad, among other things.

[SC]

All is not lost...

Interesting fact from my daughter's 1st year textbook - the Oxford Press' Themes in Greek Society and Culture: An Introduction to Ancient Greece.

(page 6)  "The backlog of papyrus manuscripts - both fragmentary and more substantial - is estimated to be between 1 million and 1.5 million with a span of at least a millennium suggested for further work of papyrologists."

In other words it will take 1000 years at the current rate of work to translate all of the existing untranslated papyri.  And new papyrus finds continue to be made in Egypt every year.

A new poem by Sappho was "discovered", that is translated, in 2013, so it is not all just receipts for grain and taxes either.

Who knows what we will live to see revealed.

SC


 

[JBF]

They're in no hurry, it is called job security   On the other hand, it is a difficult job.

The science fiction/fantasy writer Sprague De Camp wrote a book on Atlantis, and other fantastic lands such as Lemuria and Mu.  He lists all(?) the sources from antiquity about Atlantis.  Everything in them is echoed in the first source, Plato's Timaeus and Critias.  The only thing mentioned in any of them that is outside of the Timaeus and Critias is the name of the Egyptian priest, which could have come from lists that would correspond with the appropriate dramatic date of the story.
De Camp concludes that if you go by Plato's description, there is no location that would be appropriate for Atlantis, and if you are not going by Plato's description, then are you really talking about the same thing?  Geologically there is nowhere underwater that would possibly be the site of a sunken continent.  I think oceans floors are generally basalt based, where continent's are granite.  But don't trust me on that, or in other words, don't take continents for granite<grin>.
But USMC, you are right, it would be nice to have the library of alexandria, and that would be one way to look for Atlantis, or what is more important to me than whether Atlantis actually existed, _why_ did Plato include the stories (remember, both Timaeus and the Critias fragment), if he wasn't giving the straight skinny on it?  I don't know why, but one thing to remember is that Plato was a philosopher, not a historian, and so what his motivation was in giving the story is something different than that of the historian.  Furthermore, it is not Plato who is saying the Atlantis story, but a character of his in a dialogue.
I suggest you look up Plato's Timaeus and Critias and go straight to the section on Atlantis, and get it from the horse's mouth, but don't read anything else of the Timaeus, the Timaeus is one of Plato's hardest dialogues, even professors don't 'understand' the Timaeus fully, but only have 'an understanding' of it.  And if they say otherwise, they're fibbing.  Look at Sprague De Camp's book also, he doesn't like Plato, but that is okay, he doesn't have to.

Kind Regards,
JBF

[SC]

Plato's dialogues was part of a long tradition of using the "voices" of several characters (real or invented) to provide different sides of an issue.  Cicero did the same many centuries later.

It is also part of an even longer-lasting tradition of using a fictional creation - his Atlantis, its war with Athens and its downfall - to examine contemporary political events.  This technique has often been used when it was dangerous or unacceptable to deal with issues directly.  Look at the science fiction of the Soviet period.  Look at the issues like racial equality and military intervention in places like Vietnam that were examined indirectly in the original Star Trek series.  Look at the works of Salman Rushdie.  Many authors living in dictatorships or intolerant societies write "fables" as a way to write things that would put them in jail or in disgrace if they set their writings in their own world and time.

Plato was in exactly that situation and thus invented Atlantis.

SC

[JBF]

I agree that the dialogue form was a method to get past critics or 'the censor.'  Galileo tried it, Hume did it, I am not that familiar with Cicero.  That is _probably_ what Plato was doing.  But having read it several times and the complete Timaeus once, it is not obvious what exactly he is doing, which again makes sense because if it was obvious, he could get tripped up by political critics.  If someone wishes to search for Atlantis, I am skeptical about them finding it.  But maybe, (like the search for the grail), it is the search that is important, not necessarily the finding.  I would encourage USMC to check out the evidence for himself, and come up with his own conclusions.

[Jochen]

A note to the Atlantis hypothesis:

Atlantis was not invented by Platon alone, but if you compare the geographical features of Platon's Atlantis with Homer's description of the land of the Phaiakians, you will recognize so many similarities that it is impossible to think that  this would be only by chance. This was mentioned among others especially by Olaus Rudbeck the Elder (1630-1702). There must have been a shared source or Platon has copied Homer.

Best regards

[*Alex]

A note to the Atlantis hypothesis:

Atlantis was not invented by Platon alone, but if you compare the geographical features of Platon's Atlantis with Homer's description of the land of the Phaiakians, you will recognize so many similarities that it is impossible to think that  this would be only by chance. This was mentioned among others especially by Olaus Rudbeck the Elder (1630-1702). There must have been a shared source
 ...

Santorini (Thera). It fits the description both in it's geological make-up and the manner of it's destruction.

Alex

[Joss]

We have lists of titles from the library, but there was a lot of attrition in manuscripts even before the beginning of the Library,  In "The World of Odysseus" by Finley, he says that according to titles listed, half of Euripides plays did not survive until the beginning of the library.  Euripides was a younger contemporary with Socrates who died in 399 BC.  The Library was started by Ptolemy??? around 310 BC(??).  We can tell this by lists of Euripides plays, and lists of Euripides plays in the library, half of them didn't make it down less than 100 years later.

I thought the Pinakes were lost?

[Jochen]

Hi *Alex!

The really seductive geological structure of Santorini has arisen from the big eruption of the volcano in the Bronze Age by which the hypothetical Atlantis was destroyed. Now we find a 60m thick layer of pumice stone from this eruption above the remains of the old tertiary  volcano. Before this eruption Santorini was a Vesuv shaped volcano with a height of ca. 1600m. It is impossible that there was a seaport atop this  volcanic cone. The caldera was not-existent at this time.

Sorry

[esnible]

I would like to be able to read scrolls from the library but perhaps a bigger tragedies were the genocides of entire cultures.

There are so many theories about the historical Atlantis that it is hard to pick a single "correct" one.  I read a book and liked many of the theories proposed.  Mark Adams' Meet Me in Atlantis: My Obsessive Quest to Find the Sunken City documents the charming cranks and visionaries who are searching for the ruins of Atlantis.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0525953701/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0525953701&linkCode=as2&tag=snibleorg-20&linkId=ZKY657S3DODYLPJU

This is a semi-serious book, with a bibliography and index, yet simultaneously functions as a travel book. 300+ pages. No knowledge of Plato is required to understand the book. The author visits Santorini [= Thera], Doñana National Park in Spain, and Morocco. Candidates in Antarctica and Michigan are rejected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doñana_National_Park

The Atlantipedia website and its operator are also featured.
http://www.atlantipedia.ie/

[*Alex]

Hi *Alex!

The really seductive geological structure of Santorini has arisen from the big eruption of the volcano in the Bronze Age by which the hypothetical Atlantis was destroyed. Now we find a 60m thick layer of pumice stone from this eruption above the remains of the old tertiary  volcano. Before this eruption Santorini was a Vesuv shaped volcano with a height of ca. 1600m. It is impossible that there was a seaport atop this  volcanic cone. The caldera was not-existent at this time.

Sorry

Hi Jochen,

Damn, I was so sure that that event was the most likely source of the Atlantis legend.

Oh well, back to the drawing board. 

Happy New Year everybody.

*Alex

[JBF]

Look at Helike, that happened in Plato's lifetime.  There are a few other towns destroyed by tsunami at that time.

It is not Atlantis but in living memory an "Atlantis-like" event.

Thera is in the wrong part of the world, it is not where Atlantis was meant to be (the Atlantic).

[Robert_Brenchley]

It could be a mythologised and exaggerated version of an event or events such as the destruction of Santorini.

[Yore History]

Interesting question. Personally, I think it was a tragic loss but I question even without the disaster how much if any would have survived to the present day given how much conflict Alexandria saw. I draw comparisons to some of the Roman historian's text. Let's take Tacitus. I often wonder IF SOMEWHERE in Europe an original or medieval copied manuscript survives undiscovered of his lost volumes?  But the main point being so much was lost to us.  Even records where multiple duplicates were made like citizen records kept by the person with a copy in Rome...very few survive and its usually not the copies that were stored in Rome.  I like to hope that somewhere in some monastery hidden some of the lost Annals exist.