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Author Topic: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins  (Read 23118 times)

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Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2017, 01:03:55 pm »
Coins from the same obverse die law bear on the reverse different monograms: why? The only explanation is that these monograms are actually increasing numbers, expressed in Greek with the same letters of the alphabet ...

Offline zoser

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2017, 01:31:15 pm »
Hi Federico, interesting post, I have just asked on academiaedu for downloading it.

King regards
Zoser

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2017, 02:50:13 pm »
Thank you very much Zoser: I am happy that you consider it interesting!

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 02:53:00 pm »
In some cases in the monograms very large numbers are genially synthesized as it happens on this New Style tetradrachm of Athens on which is indicated the size of the issue to which it belongs both in drachms and in tetradrachns: simply brilliant ....

Offline cicerokid

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 04:40:52 pm »
 
OMNI N°11
 –
 07/2017
 
Federico De Luca
78
 
www.omni.wikimoneda.com
According to my interpretation, alphabetical numbering is found even on “σew Style” Athenian
tetradrachms minted from 196 to 86 BC where on the reverse we find some letters in alphabetical order, generally the letters from A to M carried above the amphora on which is perched the Athena’s owl

REPLY,
There are also "N"'s.
 For example,in Headdress of Isis,there is almost a full run from Alpha to Nu, with the exception of Delta and Lambda, and for the Three Graces a COMPLETE full run from alpha through to Nu.
These 2 examples (and there are others like Winged Tyche and Amphora ii), show that the Amphora letters would seem to show that it is actually a month indicator.
You might be right on the others, but somehow I expect not but not on the New Style at all!
Also most commentators on the New Style date them 164/3 to the 50's or 42 BC ( after the fall of Athens in 86 things get really problematical).

Cic

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Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 04:54:20 pm »
It is true and there is a "numerical" explanation for this too, Unfortunately I have not translated all my articles into English. To understand how I interpret the monograms reported on the new style of Athens tetradrachms you can try to translate with Google Translator the text of the online article of this link :

http://www.ilgiornaledellanumismatica.it/?p=7731

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 04:59:12 pm »
According to my interpretation, the letters on the amphora indicated distinct groups of coins (series) and not the months of the year in which they were minted as Margareth Thompson claimed. On the other hand, the monograms below the amphora are progressive numbers that indicate the progression in coin coinage within each series.

Offline cicerokid

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 04:59:37 pm »
Does your system work on the others monogrammed issues? Indeed some of the early new style do not have monograms only 2 abbreviated names, no amphora letters only the second control type usually consisting of 2 or 3 letters which often repeat ( with amphora dated coins too) on other issues. eg Cornucopia of the middle old catalogue, Trident and Cock with palm, also.
 
There is a unique example of an early early catalogue coin with 3 monograms!

Anymore examples on issues, 1, 2, 3, 4 5,7,8 9,10 and 11 which are purely monogrammed with no controls at all? If you can show that on these then you may have something.

Cic
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Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 05:04:14 pm »
On the amphora there were therefore letters in alphabetical sequence, below the amphora of the progressive numbers: ME = 50,000 drachms, equal to 12,500 tetradrachms and  :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Phi: = 100,000 drachms, equal to 25,000 tetradrachms. Being therefore of the letters, those on the amphora, it happened that there were some alphabetical sequences that arrived up to the N ...

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 05:11:41 pm »
The first 28 issues contain only monograms (usually two) - E'solo from the 29 issue of the New Style that consolidates the system of reporting the name of two fixed and fixed magistrates and one that varies with the letter on the amphora. For me every different letter on the amphora identifies a different lot of coins and the monograms below are numbers that mark the relative coinage. In my book I reconstruct two issues entirely to check if the quantitative hypothesis holds and actually holds. Unfortunately, my book is in Italian .....

Offline cicerokid

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 05:12:19 pm »
I don't quite know what you mean about Margaret Thompson, but there are sometimes 4 letters and an amphora letter too! My "Forepart of Bridled horse" is an example in my gallery.  Nobody I know has claimed the amphora letters as anything else from about 1880 except you, and the second controls are SPECULATED as names of silver sources/mines which often repeat on differing, but often close issues. Some are very long lived some short lived. They are still unknown really, but can you get a date out of 4 letters and an amphora date?

maybe a speculation too far?, See what you can do!

With this coin you have a partial monogram too, a Gamma amphora date and a 4 lettered 2nd control.

.
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Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 05:14:01 pm »
Good night friends. Here in Italy it is 11.00 pm: I'm going to bed: see you tomorrow. It's a pleasure to talk with you!

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2017, 05:19:34 pm »
wait, I'll answer right away

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 05:42:36 pm »
On the first 28 issues of the new style of Athens there are usually two monograms, explained by Margareth Thompson (The New Style Silver Coinage of Athens, The American Numismatic
   Society, New York 1961) as monograms of the monetary magistrates which are added to other names reported more extensively, as happens on your coin with the names SFAI and LYSIA

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2017, 05:50:27 pm »
For me the two monograms are not made up of letters but numbers that indicate both the drachms and the tetradrachms the size of the emission. In the specific case, in addition to the two numbers there are the initials of two magistrates

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2017, 06:04:13 pm »
Starting from the twenty-ninth issue tetradrachms issues are divided in parts, they are distinguished on the reverse by letters in alphabetical order reported above the Panathenaic amphora, and handled by a different monetary magistrate that is supported by two other regular officials that follow the entire issue. Under the amphora, instead, a progressive number is reported that indicates the coins minting progress. To understand better this elaborated symbol system lets observe the figure here posted which reproduces some tetradrachms from the 166-165 BC. issue distinguished by the symbol with an anchor alongside a star. The letter  :Greek_Gamma: on the amphora on the reverse of the coins no.1 and no.2 indicates the third part of the issue with a series of 11 parts indicated with progressive letters from A to  :Greek_Lambda:. Reconstructing the whole emission with the anchor and the star symbol it is noted that within each part of the emission, distinguished by a different alphabetical letter reported on the amphora, a part of the coins have under the amphora the initials ME (coin no.1, fig.no.18), while the remaining part of the coins have the  :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Phi: sign (coin no.2). These two signs, interpreted as compound numbers and not like letters, reveal to be a numerical progression formed by two products: ME that is (5) x M (10,000)= 50,000 drachms (equal to 12,500 tetradrachms) -In fact, 50,000 drachms : 4 (value of each tetradrachm  in drachms) = 12,5000 tetradrachms-  while  :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Phi: is 200 ( :GreeK_Sigma:) x 500 ( :Greek_Phi:) = 100,000 drachms (equal to 25,000 tetradrachms). This meant that in each part of the issue there had to be 100,000 drachms and so, in reality, 25,000 tetradrachms. The coins on and on minted, then, contained a kind of “counter”, which meant that the progressive notation informed what point the mint’s production had reached, at the moment of their minting: they started with minting the first 50,000 drachms (indicated on the ME coins) and, once minted that quantity of coins, they aimed towards the 100,000 drachms amount (indicated on the  :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Phi:coins). Once actually the amount of 100,000  drachms was minted (and so, practically 25,000 tetradrachms) they reset the “counter” and restarted minting a new series of 100,000 drachms (reported first with ME and then with  :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Phi: under the amphora) indicated in a new part of the issue, above the amphora with the following alphabetical letter. For this reason, the parts of the issue were indicated with an alphabetical numbering (the letters on the amphora) and the quantity of coins falling into each issue’s portion were indicated with the numerical progression (the numbers under the amphora).
Once minted all the coins falling within a given portion of the issue, then, as well as restarting the numbering of the pieces minted, even the third magistrate was replaced (the third name on the reverse in the bottom right field) it was set aside the two regular magistrate that followed the whole issue: in the specific case the magistrate  :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Mu: :Greek_Phi: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Kappa: :Greek_Rho: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Tau: :Greek_Iota: (coin no.1 and no.2), that had supervised the coinage of the coins in the  :Greek_Gamma: series adding his name to the other two regular magistrates  :Greek_Tau: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Mu: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Rho: :Greek_Chi: :Greek_Omicron: :Greek_Upsilon: and  :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Kappa: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Gamma: :Greek_Omicron:, it was replaced by   :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Omega: :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Iota:  :Greek_Gamma: :Greek_epsilon: called to help the   :Greek_Delta: series coinage (coin no.3).

Offline cicerokid

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2017, 05:10:25 am »
Using Thompson's findings ( and more amphora controls have been added and the 2nd control for an amphora control since 1961), what is the total number of drachms and tetradrachms for each of those issues? It seems to be enormous!

I know occasionally that new obverses are found but I have found no new ones for your three examples above, so the number of obverses have not changed , thus the obverse would be in very poor shape IF the number of tetradrachms you compute were struck from them.

Anchor and star 9 obverses 49 reverses, 11 amphora controls, 3 2nd controls= how many tetradrachms from only 9 obverses?

Do it for the rest!

Why do some 2nd controls disappear after a short while and some last a long time?.

I know the ancients were not as logical as we would like but maybe you also are picking and choosing. The Forepart of Bridled Horse of mine has a partial monogram-don't just pick the  :Greek_Pi: :Greek_Alpha: part what about the  :Greek_ :Greek_Delta:: :Greek_Omega:. What about the FOUR letters of the 2nd control? ( New to Thompson for that obverse and amphora).

I look forward to your responses, because even using Thompson's NSSCA from 1961 for the statistics you can compute up to say, 86 BC, the BAS MITH/ARISTION issue, almost the whole tetradrachm mintage for the new style. This would be a true achievement.

I know it's hard work but do it and see what figures you get and divide by the known obverses and you  will see how long the obverses lasted. Again another worthy and important achievement.

This would be an instructive exercise and not a waste of time. very few coinages have the numismatical stats that Thompson garnered and it is THE ideal test-bed. Similarly but a lesser work is F. deCallatay's L' historie.le guerres....Mithradatiques...1997 for the coinage of Mithradates Eupator with controls and for Bithynia too!
It can be done!

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Offline cicerokid

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2017, 05:46:35 am »
If you do not have NSSCA I have JPEG Anchor and Star for you, but I think it is online somewhere now. Be assured new amphora and 2nd control COMBINATIONS, and thus new reverses have been found since then, but no new obverses or 2nd controls.
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Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2017, 05:56:22 am »
In order to verify the validity of my theory, I have completely reconstructed various Athenian tetradrachms issues of the new style. The reconstruction of issues  confirms my quantitative hypothesis. To know how many tetradrachms were coined within the  issue marked by the symbol of the anchor and the star, for example,  is very simple: if the letters on the amphora are 11 (from A to M) it means that the emission consists of 11 portions of 100,000 drachms each, equivalent to 25,000 tetradrachms. Multiplying the number of 25,000 tetradrchms by 11 (how many are the series identified by a separate letter on the amphora) we obtain that the result is 275.00 tetradrachms (equal to 1.000.000 drachms): this is the number of tetradrachms coined within the emission marked by the symbol of the anchor and the star.
From this my reconstruction, then, it turns out that each obverse die  has generated an average of 20,000 coins and each reverse die  has produced 4,000 coins of average: as we can see it is realistic numbers ...
(IN THE FIGURES D=OBVERSE, R=REVERSE)

Offline cicerokid

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2017, 07:35:46 am »
That seems OK!

What about 3 lettered and 4 lettered 2nd controls?

What about rarer controls?

Keep going.

Sad that you seem to only have me as a respondent, but that is the way of the discussion, it is hugely biased towards Roman coins ( unless like deCallatay you think of the New Style as a type of Roman Provincial coinages).

Keep going!

regards

Cic


PS  What is that book you have and what is it's date etc...
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Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2017, 08:01:22 am »
All monograms reported starting from the 29th New Athens Style issue are explained as numbers; for previous issues it is more complicated to establish ...

My book:
http://www.classicadiana.it/libreria/content/federico-de-luca-i-numeri-svelati





http://www.classicadiana.it/libreria/content/federico-de-luca-i-numeri-svelati

Offline OldMoney

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2017, 11:14:39 am »
I'll add my bent two-cents to the mix.

This appears very flawed, in that you seem to be using some information, whilst ignoring
other parts, the numbers are raised and calculated arbitrarily, and all in all it seems that
the whole thing approaches pseudo-speculative thought.

Where is there any evidence that the Greeks used this system to multiply and calculate
numbers on coins, or that they used these monograms for any mathematical purpose?

Where on coinage have the symbols and numbering system in your paper been used?

Picking and choosing individual coins that "fit" your hypothesis, whilst ignoring ALL of the
other coins that do not, does not make for good scholarship.

The monograms have previously been viewed as being related to the names of various
officials. Have you successfully and properly countered those earlier, much argued and
generally accepted, theses? You observe this, but do not seem to counter any of it.

The evidence should lead to the conclusion, and not have the evidence manipulated and
twisted so that it loosely fits an already preconceived conclusion.

Sequences exist, dates exist, numbering systems exist, but to conflate them all into this
bizarre calculation and formulation supposition is highly speculative and problematic.

Was your article peer-reviewed at all? If so, was it reviewed by a qualified and recognised
numismatist, or by someone with little or no idea about that specific subject? There are
errors in your own calculations, as well as confusion between "dozens" and "tens", etc.

Perhaps you may need more direction and oversight from a qualified numismatic scholar.

Walter Holt
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Offline glebe

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2017, 04:22:54 pm »
Referring back to Reply No. 4, doesn't Pi equal 80 (not 5), as in Reply No. 15?
And where did the extra (00) come from?

Ross G.

Offline FEDERICO D

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Re: A new interpretation of the monograms carried on Greek coins
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2017, 05:47:28 pm »
QUESTION: “Where is there any evidence that the Greeks used this system to multiply and calculate  numbers on coins, or that they used these monograms for any mathematical purpose? “
ANSWER: Even if there are no specific examples referring to coins, we know that in Greek two coupled numbers multiplied among themselves. The confirmation of the correctness on this supposition derives from exercises done by a schoolboy on a wax tablet in the VI-VII century AC, transcribed in figure. On this wax tablet, for example, the simple combination of the number  :Greek_Xi: (60) to the number  :Greek_Beta: (2) indicates that they are multiplied between each other giving the  :Greek_Rho: :Greek_Kappa: (120) result, reported immediately later; the juxtaposition of the number  :Greek_Xi: (60) to the number  :Greek_Gamma: (3) indicates that they multiply together with the  :Greek_Rho: :Greek_Pi: (180) result, diligently annotated on the side, and so on.
 The principle, has remained unchanged even in today's mathematical writing, according to which two juxtaposed numbers are multiplied together, concisely allowing to report on the coins even higher numbers: in fact, the high number that was wanted to be indicated was expressed indirectly and with a multiplication between two lower numbers.

 

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