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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Coin of the Day (Moderator: LordBest)  |  Topic: King Philip II AE Units: Horseman reverse 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: King Philip II AE Units: Horseman reverse  (Read 5120 times)
peterpil19
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« on: October 12, 2017, 07:41:13 pm »

Dear All,

As I have previously shared, I have a particular fondness for coins of this type. They were some of the first ancient Greek coins I owned.  Also, I perceive that they are often overlooked and too often sold without being fully attributed.

In this thread, I will share coins of this type from my collection which I particularly like and which merit Coin of the Day status.

Peter


First coin:

Philip II; Macedon, uncertain mint; AE19; 359-336; Young male head, hair bound with taenia, facing left; ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ, Naked youthful horseman advancing right: goat's head control mark beneath horse; 18.75mm, 6.0g, 4h; Choice gVF, boldly struck, reverse slightly off centre, attractive light green patina, smooth surfaces, light scrapes; SNG ANS 876; Drama 37; HGC 3, 884; SGCV II 6699 var. (control mark); SNG Copenhagen -; SNG München -; SNG Alpha Bank -
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ickster
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 11:00:27 pm »

Is that control mark an ear of grain?

Nice coin. I too like these coins.
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peterpil19
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2017, 12:12:29 am »

Thanks,

I'm fairly confident it is a goat's head. The previous two auction firms which previously sold this coin also identified it such. I still carefully check attributions for these coins against as many published examples as I can find because it is easy to make an error in interpreting some of these control marks. By way of example, I have one which I am convinced is a bucranium, but the seller I bought it from thought it was a bunch of grapes.

Peter
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 12:25:00 am »

It's a very nice example!
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peterpil19
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 01:07:22 am »

Thanks Randy!

Peter
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Steve P
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2017, 03:38:20 am »

very cool coin, congrats Peter

=> yah, I'm pretty sure that your left-facing face is a bit more rare/scarce than my right-facing example ... but that's never stopped me from posing-down, so here is my mighty-righty!

cheers

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peterpil19
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2017, 03:55:51 am »

Very nice Steve!

The spearhead control mark is one of my favourites!

Peter
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 03:58:21 am »

very nice Peter and Steve  Grin
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peterpil19
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 11:23:52 pm »

Thanks Okidoki  Smiley

Peter
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peterpil19
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 06:48:50 am »

Here's my coin with the spearhead control mark. I like this one especially because of most of the dotted border on the obverse made it onto the flan!

Philip II; Macedon, uncertain mint; AE19; 359-336 BC; Young male head, hair bound with taenia, facing right / ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ, Naked youthful horseman advancing right; Spearhead control mark beneath horse; 19.35mm, 7.5g, 10h; Choice gVF, well struck, wide flan, high relief, attractive dark green patina with yellow highlights; SNG ANS 850-851; SNG Alpha Bank 355; SNG Copenhagen 602; SNG München 150-155; SNG Saroglos 76; SNG Manchester 643; Drama 23; Müller 173; Mionnet 750; BMC Online THO.588; HGC 3, 882; SGCV II 6696-6698 var. (control mark); SNG Saroglos -

Peter
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Steve P
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 09:58:47 am »

yup, that's another total winner (congrats)

 Thumbs Up

 Greek_omega_small Greek_Xi_2 Nline Nline GreeK_Sigma reversedR -  Greek_omega_small Greek_Xi_2 Nlinereversed Nlinereversed Greek_epsilon reversedR
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peterpil19
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2017, 03:33:38 am »

Thanks Steve Smiley

Peter
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Steve P
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 02:07:13 pm »

No problemo, Peter

Hey, am I also allowed to post one of my big, silver beauties?

Philip II AR tetradrachm
Date: 336-328 BC
Diameter: 23.9 mm.
Weight: 14.0 gr.
Obverse: Laureate head of Zeus.
Reverse: Youth on horse, holding palm; club below.
References: Cf. Le Rider 379 (Pella mint)
Other: Lovely style, deep toning ... yummy-yummy

Awww, crap ... the date might be wrong on this baby (or maybe this isn't the same dude?) ... or everything may be good?

=> yah, I'm awesome at buying and adoring my coins, but I'm the first to admit that I am a bit shy on actually researching the skinny associated with my coins (my bad)

... but OMG, this coins feels sooooo good in-hand (and wow, it has such amazing toning => it's not its fault that the owner is such a dope)

=> please put your hands together for "Steroid Horse"!!!
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peterpil19
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 06:00:02 pm »

That is one buff horse!

The die-engraver must have been a gym-junkie!

Thanks for sharing.

I ordered a Philip II tetradrachm recently and looking forward to it arriving in the post.

Peter
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peterpil19
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 04:18:48 pm »

Here is one with the "prow" reverse.

The obverse is nothing much to look at - struck well off centre.
But the prow control mark is one of the best I have seen. For such a tiny control mark it clearly looks like what it is meant to (not often the case in this series!).

Ref: SNG ANS 854; SNG Copenhagen 609; SNG Alpha Bank 365; SNG München 156-157; Drama 26; Müller 185; HGC 3, 882; SGCV II 6696-6698 var. (control mark); SNG Saroglos -
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n.igma
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 09:19:00 pm »

This one was found in Pakistan, over 3,000 miles from Macedonia!

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-115223
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 11:15:55 pm »

I figured I take a quick  look around at more examples of these on the net.  Most have the horse and bust going to the right, fewer have horse and bust left, while the coin the OP posted seems rare with bust left and horse right.

My example is opposite this with bust right and horse & rider left. Is my observation correct in that opposite bust/horse & rider combo's are more scarce?



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peterpil19
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 09:31:25 pm »

Nice example n.igma!

Thanks for sharing - out of interest, how did you know where it was found?


ickster,

Yes in the sense that most of the types are head right / horserider right. Most of the types in the Drama hoard are of this kind.

But that is only a general observation:

1. There are plenty of right / right types with control marks which I cannot find for sale anywhere.
2.  There appears to be an abundance of right / left  types with the N control mark. I have several.
3. I have no difficulty in acquiring the left / left ones with the (helios / lion's head / thunderbolt / crab / unknown symbol - depending on the reference you read) control mark.
4. I have also had no difficulty in acquiring the left / right ones with the bull forepart control mark despite vendors often claiming this type is rare.

Peter
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n.igma
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 11:30:20 pm »

Thanks for sharing - out of interest, how did you know where it was found?

In the past I have been involved in a bit of numismatic research with Pankaj Tandon from whom I acquired the coin. He noted the unusual find location and I have no reason to doubt him. He sourced many of his coins in his virtual museum http://coinindia.com/  from that part of the world.   
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peterpil19
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2017, 12:45:09 am »

That's incredible, thanks for sharing!

Unfortunately almost all coins I buy or see for sale, lack information about where they were found.

Peter
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2017, 10:44:23 am »

Peter,

Thanks for that excellent breakdown. I sounds like you may have a small study ongoing.
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peterpil19
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2017, 06:40:58 pm »

You are welcome, Ickster,

I would not call it exactly a study, more of an interest!  This interest does involve me scouring all dealer and auction sites for coins in this series so I am developing an instinctive feel for availability of different kinds. Overall I am disappointing that there is not a significant number of these for sale (other than on eBay and mostly in horrible grades).

Out of the many I own, my favourite is the one below. All details are sharp, the (young) portrait of Apollo is of fine style and the patina is stunning.  Compare it to the other 2 examples I own below and you will see why it stands out as an incredible example of its type.

BTW, I bought it right here on FORVM (Joe, please stock some more!!!)

Peter
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Steve P
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2017, 09:01:59 am »

JA (John Anthony, a dude that is on CoinTalk) also has a good handle on these types and their relative rarity ... you may want to give him a shout (I remember that he had collected several combinations and I'm sure his info would compliment your info)

Cheers, Peter
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2017, 04:59:57 pm »

Thanks Steve,

Great to have you back!

Peter
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RL
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2017, 11:58:59 pm »

Hi Peter

I have been meaning to contribute to this post for a while and took the opportunity today as I have been playing with developing a photo rig based on your and Doug Smith’s exchange here (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=109945.0).

Although I’m still working on it (and my iPhone is only good for so much) the photos are much better than my usual fare so I thought as a thank you for sharing your knowledge (to you and Doug) I thought I would finally get around to sharing my Philip II coins!

A bit of a mixed bag and I’ve never gotten around to fully attributing them. I haven’t quite captured the detail and colouring of the one with the green patina (lighting needs work) but it’s great in hand (probably the most attractive ae in my collection). The one with the off center obverse has a soft spot for me as it was my first Greek ae (not a focus of my collection). The final one with Heracles on the obverse caught my eye recently just because I had never seen a Philip II ae horseman which didn’t feature Apollo. It wasn’t going for much and I had already won a coin off of the vendor in that particular auction so I picked it up on a whim.

I hope they are of interest.

Cheers

RL
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Steve P
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2017, 08:30:14 am »

That's pretty cool, RL ... I like your AE Philip-II with Heracles

Phil-II's AR Tets usually show Zeus on the obverse and his AE units usually show Apollo (or young male), so your sweet Heracles example is really neat (congrats)

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peterpil19
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2017, 07:19:50 pm »

Hi RL,

Thank you for sharing photos of your coins. I do not currently own any of the Herakles observe types. Here is a link to Phillip II bronze coins with Herakles obverse in the collection of the American Numismatic Society: http://numismatics.org/search/results?q=authority_facet%3A%22Philip+II%22+AND+deity_facet%3A%22Heracles%22+AND+material_facet%3A%22Bronze%22

Also, great job on your first attempt at taking photos of these types. They make particularly difficult subjects given their concavity / convexity. The only coin I have experienced that is more difficult to photograph is a King Philip II silver tetradrachm which I recently acquired.  I may need to try Doug's stacking approach as I could not get all parts of the coin in focus even at higher f-stops.

Peter
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peterpil19
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2017, 12:43:44 am »

Dear all,

I am please to share with you a recent acquisition.  It is a variant with a rarer control mark and is exceptional condition. I have posted it in COTD because it is one of the finest examples I have seen.

I am also pleased with the photograph.

Philip II; Macedon, uncertain mint; AE17; Bronze; 359-336 BC; Obverse: Young male head, hair bound with taenia, facing right; Reverse: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ, Naked youthful horseman advancing right; AP monogram and trident-head control mark beneath horse; (17.05mm, 6.5g, 8h); References: SNG ANS 908; Drama 53; HGC 3, 882; SGCV II 6696-6698 var. (control mark); SNG Alpha Bank -; SNG München -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG Saroglos -; SNG Christomanos -; SNG Soutzos -; Müller -; Mionnet -

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Steve P
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« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 12:02:52 pm »

Wow, nice photo (congrats on adding another winner to your specialty-collection)

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peterpil19
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 05:57:24 pm »

Thanks Steve,

I appreciate the kind words.

Still got many to go!

Have got about 30 which I bought in bulk which I have not yet attributed either but those are unlikely to be coin of the day worthy... I bought them solely for their control marks.

Peter
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 08:46:35 am »

Dear all,

I am please to share with you a recent acquisition.  It is a variant with a rarer control mark and is exceptional condition. I have posted it in COTD because it is one of the finest examples I have seen.

I am also pleased with the photograph.

Philip II; Macedon, uncertain mint; AE17; Bronze; 359-336 BC; Obverse: Young male head, hair bound with taenia, facing right; Reverse: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ, Naked youthful horseman advancing right; AP monogram and trident-head control mark beneath horse; (17.05mm, 6.5g, 8h); References: SNG ANS 908; Drama 53; HGC 3, 882; SGCV II 6696-6698 var. (control mark); SNG Alpha Bank -; SNG München -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG Saroglos -; SNG Christomanos -; SNG Soutzos -; Müller -; Mionnet -



Utterly fantastic! Finest example indeed!
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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2017, 07:56:57 pm »

Thank you David for your kind words.

Now I present another recent purchase. This one was attributed correctly by the vendor. However it appears to be quite rare. To illustrate, I could not find any examples on acsearch or in the British Museum collection (online). There appears to be only a single example in the ANS database. I have not yet searched other databases.

The specimen in SNG ANS (no. 952) is of poorer quality with the control mark only partially visible, which explains why the catalogers were unable to identify it. Instead they represented it as some sort of question mark, followed by a literal question mark to indicate uncertainty. The control mark does appear clearly in SNG Copenhagen (no. 615).

Note that whilst the ranges of SNG ANS numbers listed in Handbook of Greek Coinage volume 3 include SNG 952 (as part of a range), oddly the relevant range appears in section where the horserider - which Hoover describes as being Philip II - is exclusively advancing right, not left.

Peter

Philip II; Macedon, uncertain mint; AE17; Bronze;359-336 BC; Obverse: Young male head, hair bound with taenia, facing right / Reverse: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ, Naked youthful horseman advancing left; retrograde P control mark beneath horse; (17.42mm, 6.1g, 10h); References: SNG ANS 952; SNG Copenhagen 615; cf. HGC 3, 881-885; cf. SGCV II 6696-6699; SNG Alpha Bank -; SNG München -; SNG Saroglos -; Drama -; Müller -; Mionnet I -
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Steve P
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2017, 04:14:28 am »

Peter, congrats on scoring another cool Phil- horse & rider example

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« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2017, 11:51:26 pm »

Hi Peter,

Nice series of Philip II. Macedon.   Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

This one some of mine :   Wink Smiley

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122112
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124798

and two small Silver:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122117
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-134819


Regards

Q.

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peterpil19
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2017, 12:23:28 am »

Hi Q,

Great coins!

I do not have an example with the bow control mark yet.
I have come across a few but still waiting for the right one.
It is certainly one of the rarer control marks on these coins.

You example with the 'Pi' control mark is a beauty.
Here is an example from my collection.
In attributing my coin, I referenced a different range of numbers in SNG ANS (944-945) to you (947). I do not have my copy handy with me to check but presumably I did so because my coin has a different die-axis (9h) to your coin (5h).

Peter
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2017, 12:34:39 am »

Thank Peter,

I also have some more example, but till I do not have a photo from them ..

The small silver 2nd. picture are also scarce control mark "star"..

Regards

Q.
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peterpil19
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2017, 12:40:05 am »

Thanks

Please do share them when you get a chance!

For bronze coinage, I cannot remember if there is a star control mark. But there is definitely a control mark which is described as a 'pentagram', which obviously has five points, compared to your star which appears to have eight points.

Peter
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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2018, 05:52:58 am »

Dear All,

I am pleased to share this recent acquisition of an apparently unique and unpublished variant with an eagle control mark.

Peter
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« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2018, 06:29:41 am »

Very nice specimen  Thumbs Up

Q.
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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2018, 08:57:47 am »

A remarkable piece Peter, well done!

- Walter
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« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2018, 10:16:26 am »

Very handsome coin Peter
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peterpil19
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« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2018, 06:28:44 pm »

Thank you gents!

Peter
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« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2018, 07:21:27 pm »

Nice catch ... cool eagle, my coin-friend

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« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2019, 04:58:08 pm »

Dear All,
I am pleased to share this recent acquisition of an apparently unique and unpublished variant with an eagle control mark.
Peter

Hi Peter,
I was going through some older images I had on file, and came across this
one, showing a similar eagle to your own one above (btw - not my coin).

Thought you might like to see it, and add it to your records.

All the best,

- Walter


(image: c/- M.Breitsprecher, sold c.2011)
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