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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Parthian and Other Eastern Coins (Moderator: Howard Cole)  |  Topic: My Elymaean Album 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: My Elymaean Album  (Read 14424 times)
Stkp
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« on: October 07, 2017, 03:21:02 pm »

I recently added several Elymaean drachms to my personally gallery. This prompted me to acquire van't Haaff's book on the series, and then to acquire still more drachms. With book in hand, I corrected/fine-tuned my attributions and descriptions of the coins I had previously posted to my gallery (there was just one outright correction and a few fine-tunings). I also created a separate album within my gallery for them:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6557

I'm still new with these, so any corrections to my attributions would be appreciated.

Stkp
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Robert L3
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 04:29:09 pm »

Fantastic gallery of Elymaeans.  Looks great.  Congrats.  I've got it bookmarked and will check back from time to time.

Fyi, on your two Prince A's you've got the reverse goddess listed as Athena.  It's Artemis (holding bow).
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 04:55:04 pm »

I agree with Robert, Great album.. Thumbs Up

 Regards
 Q.
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Stkp
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2017, 07:21:00 pm »

Thank you, Robert, both for the compliment and the correction. And thank you, also, Quadrans.
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Stkp
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 10:31:46 am »

I recently added two coins to this album. Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated:

Orodes V, van't Haaff 18.1.1-1A
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140643
The attribution to subtype is based on an obverse feature at 10-11 o'clock, which appears to be the remnant of a legend.

Unknown King, van't Haaff 21.2.1-1
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140644
This attribution is tentative. Naturally, if the coin should be otherwise attributed, I welcome any suggestions.

Stkp
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Robert L3
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 01:24:49 pm »

Great additions, Stkp!  Congrats on the rarity (VH 21.2).

A couple of comments about that coin.  One, while I was almost tempted to see an eagle right on that obverse, I do believe it is a very abstract bust right that should be rotated counterclockwise.  (See below)  I think the curl is a diadem loop, typically omitted or cropped off flan on these issues.  The "eagle's" feathers I interpret as diadem ends.  Compare the loop on the example below yours.

So many of these get quirky renditions of the king's bust - I think yours may take the cake.  (Although the last one below is a definite runner up!)

Two, I think Van't Haaff missed a number of examples that have a single dot above the crescent, and another single dot below - as on your coin, and several of the examples below.  Had he caught these, I'm sure he would have included them as another subtype (".b").  As it is, I guess we should refer to these as 21.2.1-1.a variant (single dot above and below crescent).

This underscores the fact that Elymaean numismatic scholarship has a ways to go before a more complete picture emerges.  For my part, I recently picked up an unpublished tet: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140438  While it's clearly Phraates (as identified by the tiara), and I am calling it a Van't Haaff 14.8.1-1 variant, it could rightfully be called a unique and unpublished type rather than a variant of an existing type.

I love your gallery.  Keep 'em coming.
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Stkp
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 10:58:05 pm »

Thank you, Robert, for confirming my attribution. I modified my write-up of the coin to, among other things, include the URL to your discussion. You appear to be correct about the orientation of the coin, which I oriented based on the few details that seemed to correspond with the photo in van't Haaff. It appears that coins with one dot above and one below the crescent are as "common" as those with three dots below. Giving van't Haaff the benefit of the doubt, he may not have missed these. Rather, they may have become available in the decade since his catalog was published.

That is a nice tet, and a great find. I'll have to study it later. So far, my focus has been on the drachms and smaller denominations.

I'll continue posting here as the album grows...

Stkp
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Stkp
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2017, 12:44:27 pm »

The van't Haaf 20.2 pops up more frequently than I realized. Here is another that I stumbled upon:
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Stkp
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 12:59:39 pm »

I just added two more to my gallery:

Orodes IV, van't Haaff 17.2.1-1
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140909

Prince A, van't Haaff 19.1.1-2
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140908
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Robert L3
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 01:53:53 pm »

Nice pick-ups, Stkp.  Congrats - well done.  I also just recently added a VH 17.2 Orodes IV drachm, similar to your new addition.  I suspect mine is from the same hoard (which seems to be endless!) and seller.  Haven't had time to photo and upload it yet, though.
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Stkp
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 06:36:51 pm »

Quote from: Robert L3 on November 05, 2017, 01:53:53 pm
I suspect mine is from the same hoard (which seems to be endless!) and seller

All of the Elymaeans that I have bought from the seller, and the others offered that I have not bought, all have the same patina. This suggests to me that they were all subject to the same soil conditions, which is consistent with them all being from the same hoard. However, the coins offered range from Orodes I (late 1st to early 2nd centuries) through Prince A (late 2nd to early 3rd centuries), per van't Haaff's attribution and chronology. Nor are coins from the beginning or end of the period anomalies; there are many from both ends of the period represented. Wouldn't it be unusual for a hoard to include bronze coins spanning a hundred year period?

Whether or not from a single hoard, they do seem to be endless. I am taking advantage of the opportunity and filling in many blanks in my collection (and upgrading a few).

Stkp
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Stkp
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2017, 09:22:47 am »

I just added three more Elymaeans to my gallery:

Orodes V, van't Haaff 18.1.1-2A (this is an upgrade as I already had one of these in my gallery)
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141447

Prince A, van't Haaff 19.1.1-1 (this is also an upgrade). My earlier coin of this type is crude -- more so than any example I have ever seen pictured. Might it be a "barbarous imitation"? Any thoughts? Here are links to both:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141448 (better specimen)
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140192 (crude coin)

Unidentified King, van't Haaff 21.1.1-1
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141444

Thanks for looking.

Stkp
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Robert L3
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2017, 09:40:16 am »

Ah, it was YOU who outbid me on the "better specimen" VH 19.1!  Rats!  Well, I'm glad it went to a good home and to someone who clearly shares my love for this coin series.

Congrats.  Great collection.

- Bob
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2017, 07:25:54 pm »

And three more (I couldn't resist):

Kamnaskires-Orodes, van't Haaff 12.3.1-1A
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141468

Orodes II, van't Haaff 13.1.1-1
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141467

Phraates, van't Haaff 14.1.1-2A
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141466

Quote from: Robert L3 on November 26, 2017, 09:40:16 am
Ah, it was YOU who outbid me on the "better specimen" VH 19.1!  Rats!  Well, I'm glad it went to a good home and to someone who clearly shares my love for this coin series.

Small world, Bob. So YOU are the one who bid up the price on my upgraded Prince A, van't Haaff 19.1.1-1. You have enough beauties in your collection, including some from van't Haaff's own collection. I'm glad you don't begrudge me the win (it was the most I;ve paid for an Elymaean drachm).

Any thoughts as to whether my other (crude) example of the type might be an imitative?

Stkp
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Robert L3
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2017, 07:49:37 pm »

I think all of your Elymaean coins are official issues.  Of course with coins of the Elymais Arsacid Dynasty, “official” still sometimes equates to crude.

Here are my two pick-up’s from the same hoard and seller.  A Prince A (VH 19.1.1-1A) and an Orodes IV (VH type 17.2).  One is still on its way across the ocean to me.  I probably won’t get them both re-photo’ed and uploaded to my gallery for another month or so…too busy with work these days, unfortunately.


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Stkp
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2017, 07:50:50 pm »

They are both nice additions, Robert.
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2017, 07:53:49 pm »

I have added six more coins to this album:

Uncertain Early Arsacid Kings (late 1st century B.C. to early 2nd century B.C.), van't Haaff 10.4.2-4A
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142367

Kamnaskires-Orodes (early mid 2nd Century A.D.), van't Haaff 12.2.1-1A
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142365

Elymais. Arsacid dynasty. Orodes II (early-mid 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 13.3.2-2B
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142366

Phraates (late 1st century to early 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 14.7.2-2A
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142363

Orodes IV (ca. 2nd half of 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 17.3.1-1
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142364

Unidentified King (uncertain dates), van't Haaff 21.1.1-2
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-142362

Stkp





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Robert L3
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2017, 08:03:18 pm »

Great new set of drachms.  Well done!
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quadrans
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2017, 11:15:39 pm »

Hahhh.

Nice group  Thumbs Up

Congratulations

Q.

Happy Seasonal Greetings..

Q.
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peterpil19
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2017, 04:46:40 am »

Well done on your latest acquisitions!  Thumbs Up

Peter
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Stkp
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2017, 05:04:21 pm »

Thank you, Robert, Quadrans and Peter
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Stkp
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2018, 10:10:24 am »

I just added to my gallery an Unidentified King, van't Haaff 21.2.1-1 var. The coin is interesting because the bust faces left rather than right.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144021
Stkp
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Robert L3
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2018, 10:22:40 am »

Interesting variant!  I expect it's unpublished.  Congrats!
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Stkp
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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2018, 10:24:39 am »

Thank you, Robert. I have yet to see a classic example with the configuration of dots as per van't Haaff. Stkp
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 08:52:41 pm »

I just posted a second van't Haaff 10.4.2-4A (Uncertain Early Arsacid Kings) to my gallery. The coin is unusual due to the crudeness of the obverse bust.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144144
Stkp

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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 09:10:53 pm »

I deleted the crude 10.4.2-4A and re-posted, to correct the orientation of the obverse photo.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144145
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Robert L3
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2018, 09:32:59 pm »

Steve,

I've been thinking this evening about that VH 10.4.2-4A of yours.  Firstly, congrats on the pick-up.  I like these little drachms of the Uncertain Early Arsacid rulers of Elymais.

I may have to disagree with your description of the obverse portrait as "beardless."  I think the beard is there, but greatly worn.  For comparison to a similar type, VH 10.3.2-1.b, see your coin alongside the images from the book, below.  Note the worn beard on van't Haaff's coin and how the lower part of its shape, as it rises to the upper lip, is similar to yours.

I am also providing a side-by-side with one of mine, a 10.3 type of decent style.  I have to say the portraits seem fairly similar, although perhaps yours has a more scrunched-in nose.  I realize yours may be called a 10.4 (no pellet alongside the anchor) rather than a 10.3 (with pellet).  But, given the beard shape  so similar to some of the 10.3's, I'd almost be tempted to call yours a 10.3.2-1 variant (the variant being no pellet).  The reverse on your coin is well worn - so perhaps it indeed fits the "dashes of irregular style" description.  But given the wear I'm not sure we can be so certain.  And, of course, in any event, the 10.3.2-1.c has a completely degenerated reverse too.

Anyway, I'm just picking nits.  The distinguishing features between some of van't Haaff's types are so subtle - something I recall Doug Smith complaining about once - that narrowing down the attribution to particular subtypes based on the small grainy images in the book can be frustrating.

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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 07:48:34 pm »

Robert,

I believe that you are 100% correct about the beard. My conclusion was hasty. A beardless male bust on an Elymaean coin would be an anomaly. The default conclusion must be that the beard is there, but crudely portrayed, worn, and largely off flan (as in van't Haaff 10.3.2-1.b).

I had momentarily considered attributing the coin as a van't Haaff 10.3.2-1, but rejected the idea out of hand. My thinking was (a) van't Haaff does not portray any coins of that type with a reverse as degenerate as on my coin; (b) On first blush my coin does not have a star in crescent; and (c) My coin lacks a pellet to the left of the anchor.

Upon reconsideration, I think that you are right and that my coin is a van't Haaff 10.3.2-1 var. and not a van't Haaff 10.4.2-4A var. My reasoning is: (a) The bust on my coin is a much closer match to 10.3.2-1.b than to any of the busts depicted for any type 10.4 coin; (b) The reverses on a few of the type 10.3 tetradrachms are considerably more degenerate than on the few type 10.3 drachms depicted, which suggests that a reverse as degenerate as on my coin is not inconsistent with the type; (c) van't Haaff notes that the star on type 10.3 "morphs into a cross-like form" as the style degrades. The crude bust is indicative of degraded style. On closer examination, the rather worn and indistinct object within the crescent on my coin appears to be a cross-like form; and (d) Some of the tets on type 10.3 lack a pellet, which suggests that drachms of that type may similarly lack a pellet. Further, the pellet on some type 10.3 tets is to the right of the anchor. On closer examination, my coin appears to have a pellet to the right of the anchor, positioned as per 10.3.1D.

You have a good eye. Once again, thank you for the assistance.

I will be amending my description of the coin.

As to the criticism of van't Haaff, I have seen many other numismatic works which classify coins based on fine or subjective distinctions that are more subtle than those im van't Haaff.

Stkp
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Robert L3
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 08:45:11 pm »

Good analysis...thanks for sharing your thinking.  Looking forward to more of your coins!  It'll be awhile before I can post more of mine...I need to find time first to hunt for a new camera!
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« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 08:19:17 am »

I'd hate to keep you waiting. Here are two more:

Orodes III (2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 16.1.1-1
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144177

and

Orodes IV (ca. 2nd half of 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 17.1.1-2
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144178

Now please get that camera so that we can all see more of your latest acquisitions.

Stkp
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« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2018, 08:58:56 am »

Excellent additions from the hoard that keeps on giving.

That's the second VH 16.1 to be uploaded to Forum galleries in as many days.  Cool - what were the odds of that ever happening?  Boy, those Elymaean die engravers knew how to butcher Greek legends, didn't they?

Your 17.1, Steve, may have the most complete (visible) crescent-with-pellet above the anchor that I've seen on that subtype.  I'm not sure I've ever seen one completely on-flan like this.  Good pick-up!

The camera's going to have to wait a couple of weeks, until my spring break at earliest.  Then, of course, will be the trial and error learning period.  Hopefully I'll get stuff shot soon...

Bob
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« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2018, 10:02:49 am »

Nice discussion Smiley

Congratulation Steve, great piece,  Thumbs Up

Bob, we are waiting for your pictures from your interesting coins.  Wink Smiley Thumbs Up

Joe

p.s.
I have some pieces ( cc. 20-25) this kind of coins but I do not have any useful reference book on my shelf, but try to find something to attribute them.  Wink

Joe

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Robert L3
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« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2018, 11:06:03 am »

Quote from: quadrans on February 24, 2018, 10:02:49 am
...try to find something to attribute them.

That "something" could be us.
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« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2018, 11:44:41 am »

It is OK, Bob Smiley

Joe
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Stkp
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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2018, 08:29:40 pm »

Thank you Robert and Joe. I was very happy to grab that 17.1.1-2 Stkp
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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2018, 10:47:23 pm »

I just added an Orodes III, van't Haaff 16.3.2-1, to my gallery:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144863
The reverse does not fall neatly into any subtype. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2018, 08:34:20 am »

The reverse does not fall neatly into any subtype.

Yep, another interesting variant.  Seems like Elymaean mint masters allowed their die engravers to explore their personal creativity where the reverses are concerned.

Congrats on the pick-up.
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2018, 06:52:26 am »

A very nice Orodes III, van't Haaff 16.2.1-1
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-144995
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2018, 06:55:33 am »

 Thumbs Up
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2018, 09:31:22 am »

The nose on Orodes is particularly great.
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« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2018, 01:48:34 pm »

My most recent is an Orodes IV (ca. 2nd half of 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 17.1.1-1 http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-145815
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2018, 08:09:30 pm »

I just added an Osroes (1st quarter of 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 15.3.1-1, to my gallery. From what I have seen, this is a less common type:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-147478
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« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2018, 09:24:44 pm »

Nice addition.  As you may know, Oliver D. Hoover, in his review of van't Haaff's book in the ANS magazine in 2008, argued that van't Haaff blundered in his listing of types 15.1, 15.2, and 15.3.  Hoover suggested that these are in fact issues of the Parthian Osroes, not an Elymaean ruler from the Arsacid family.  Sellwood type 80's include various AE denominations with Osroes/Tyche combos.  Although the following is a tetrachalkous (unlike yours), consider the similarities in style: http://parthia.com/coins/si_osr1.jpg

Hoover wrote: "Van’t Haaff divides the coinages of Phraates and Orodes III by three small bronze emissions of Osroes (types 15.1–15.3). These almost certainly depict the Parthian king of that name rather than a local Elymaean ruler (compare the portrait with D. Sellwood, Introduction to the Coinage of Parthia [London, 1980], no. 80), as has sometimes been suggested. Their style and lack of the usual Elymaean anchor symbol shows that they are out of place between these two Elymaean monarchs. They are probably regular Parthian issues of this king. Despite their appearance in the French excavations of Susa, it is not impossible that the coins of Osroes were actually struck elsewhere."  For the full review see: http://numismatics.org/magazine/elymaeansummer08/

Van't Haaff actually addressed the issue on page 25 of his book, acknowledging that "the attribution of Type 15 coins has been controversial" and that some scholars have posited that they are issues of Osroes of Parthia.  I am inclined to think so too.  What's interesting to me is that your coin, Stkp, is - I assume - not from the "French excavations of Susa" that Hoover refers to above, from which, presumably/implicitly, the heretofore known specimens of type 15 came - but, rather, from whatever recent dig(s) resulted in this flood of drachms that has hit the market in the past couple of years.  (From which both of our collections have benefitted)  Frustratingly, I don't think there's been any documentation about the specifics of that excavation...but I'm not certain about that.  Do you know if there have been other type 15's in the listings from the recent find(s)?

So, assuming the coin is of Parthia's Osroes, and that the find spots for these have now extended over different parts of what was Elymais in antiquity, it does raise interesting questions.  What was the relationship between Osroes and Elymais, beyond the Arsacid tie?  Was he the defacto ruler of both Parthia and Elymais for a time?  Was he forcing his coinage - perhaps minted in Parthia-proper - upon Elymais for a period?  Was there an incursion/occupation?  Was the possible "forcing" of his coinage upon Elymais a warning to Elymaean Arsacid supporters of Volo III?  I am intrigued by van't Haaff's comment that "Bell retains the coins (type 15) in the Elymaean series, but doubts whether there was a separate Elymaean king Osroes."  What's that all about?  Again, it begs the question: Why have Parthian coins of Osroes (if that's what they are) shown up in Elymaean find spots?  I have no clue, but it's fun to speculate.  Interesting stuff, at least for me.
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« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2018, 11:46:07 am »

Robert,

Thanks for the detailed commentary on the coin. I had forgotten about Oliver Hoover's critique of van't Haaff's attribution (and I keep a printout of his review inside the covers of the book). I will be including a discussion of Hoover's thoughts in my (updated) description of the coin.

My coin was purchased from one of the two dealers responsible for the recent flood of Elymaean bronze coins. As such, it is most probably from the same hoard as the rest of this flood of coinage (assuming that both dealers obtained portions of a single hoard), and not from the excavations to which Hoover referred. It is the only coin of its type that I have noticed being offered since I began to seriously collect this series. For that reason, I was very happy to obtain it, notwithstanding that it is not the ideal specimen of the type. You raise some interesting questions. We at least now know that the presence of this type in association with Elymaean finds is not limited to the excavations to which Hoover referred.

As always, I am pleased to be the beneficiary of your knowledge of and passion for this coinage.

Stkp
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« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2018, 03:23:27 pm »

I see that, in their entry for Elymais, Iranologie.com also acknowledges that there may have been only one Osroes (that is, that Parthia's Osroes was one and the same with the king of van't Haaff's type 15):

"Not much is known about the events following the ascent of the Arsacid cadet branch to the throne of Elymais...One of these late rulers might have been a certain Osroes whose coins have on their obverse a portrait close to that of the Arsacid Osroes/Chosroes I. This might suggest that the Arsacid great-king was indeed the same as the Elymaid king."

https://iranologie.com/the-history-page/the-arsacid-empire/hellenistic-minor-kingdoms/
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« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2018, 10:17:19 pm »

I have revised my attribution.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-147478
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« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2018, 03:26:50 pm »

I’ve been thinking, with some frustration, about this newer hoard, which obviously consists of hundreds of coins and which has been sold off piecemeal, via two German sellers – and maybe a Cyprus seller too (?) – for some time.  It seems endless.  The hoard that keeps on giving.

Earlier today I happened to be perusing Heidemarie Koch’s A Hoard of Coins from Eastern Parthia from 1990 (in which an entire, intact hoard was documented), and I found myself thinking about what a missed opportunity has taken place with these newly found Elymaeans.  In addition to documented types that fit cleanly into the existing corpus for Elymaeans, we’ve noted at least a few unpublished variants and – as in the case of your coin above, Stkp – documented types that, if the hoard had been properly researched and catalogued, and its find spot publicly identified, might have greatly added to our knowledge of this series – and might have challenged or supported existing theories.  If someone had documented and published the hoard prior to its dispersal, I’d be first in line for the book – well, maybe second behind you, Stkp.  It is really a shame that no study was done.  With some of these individual purchases we're left speculating "in a bubble."  Thank goodness - well, I mean, thank Joe - that we have this board to bounce ideas back and forth.

Here’s a recent pickup of my own, below, for example.  I am really behind on uploading to my gallery, and hesitate to do so until some more en route coins arrive and are photo’ed.  But this one, not yet in my gallery, is (I believe) an unpublished van’t Haaff 21.2 variant with crescent turned downward instead of upward, as compared to van’t Haaff’s single example of the type, which appears in the book image to be in very poor condition.  Van’t Haaff has this statement attached to his single specimen: “Too few of these coins are known to determine their denomination.”  (Mine, at 2.14 gm, is consistent with drachms of some of the later coins in the series, most notably drachms of Prince A and B; so would mine, in conjunction with other VH 21.2’s from the hoard, have resolved this issue once and for all?  Furthermore would mine have become another subtype rather than the “variant” I am forced to list it as?)  I’ve noted at least several VH 21.2’s in the new hoard.  What a shame these, and all the other coins, which include occasional variants of multiple VH types, were not available to Pieter Anne when he was researching for his book.  And how sad that no one did any scholarly work prior to the dispersal of this hoard.

VH 21.2 variant with crescent turned downward toward pellets:
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« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2018, 07:35:38 pm »

Rob,

I just sent an email to one of the sellers of these coins, requesting images and weight data so that I may undertake a study. I'm not sure that I'm up to the task, but will nevertheless give it my best effort if the seller is cooperative and willing to provide me with the data. I'll let you know when/if I get a response.

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« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2018, 08:15:31 pm »

Wow, so glad to read this, Steve.  If the dealer (and, perhaps later: dealers?) are cooperative and have, themselves, kept decent records, you might be positioned to really contribute to our knowledge of the series.  At the risk of getting ahead of ourselves here, perhaps Pieter Anne van't Haaff might support/assist the effort (?).

I greatly look forward to hearing (reading, that is) about how it's coming along.  Best wishes!  Let me know if I can help in any way - always available via this thread or email.

Bob
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« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2018, 07:28:53 am »

Bob,

I heard back from the dealer. Unfortunately: (a) he obtained the coins from a consignor in Europe and states that he has no information concerning the source (thus, our belief that they are all part of a single commercial hoard must remain an assumption); and (b) he does not preserve the images and weight data (which remain accessible on the internet for just 90 days post-sale).

My recollection is that quite a few van't Haaff 21.2's were sold within that time period. Thus, sufficient data may be available to determine the weight range and median weight of the emission, and thus to infer the denomination. I hope that you are up to this truncated task, because I am very reluctant to dig into it on a time-sensitive basis.

Steve
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« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2018, 08:53:49 am »

Sounds essentially like a dead-end given that the listings go back - what?  A year or so?  Coincidentally I see another 21.2 variant, this one with a single pellet above, and a single pellet below the crescent, just listed today.  Without records going back beyond 90 days, at best a snapshot of a small sampling could be made.  If all records had been available, a more substantive picture might have emerged, perhaps even with some die linkages determined.

Alas, I wish I had more time for the research this would entail - even for the snapshot version.  I just have too much on my plate.  Retirement can't come soon enough...
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« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2018, 07:55:10 pm »

I just added three Elymaean drachms to my gallery:

Kamnaskires-Orodes, van't Haaff 12.3.1-2A1: variety with pellet between bust and anchor
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-148285

Kamnaskires-Orodes, van't Haaff 12.3.1-2B1: variety with symbol between bust and anchor
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-148286

Prince A, van't Haaff 19.1.1-1A: variety with crescent on reverse
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-148287

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« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2018, 08:05:54 pm »

Nice additions.   Thumbs Up
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« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2018, 08:26:29 pm »

Thanks.
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« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2018, 11:44:28 pm »

Hi Steve,

Nice group... Wink Thumbs Up

Q.
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« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2018, 07:53:26 pm »

Thanks
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« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2018, 01:08:16 am »

I was very happy to discover, and add to my collection, an unrecorded drachm of Prince A (late 2nd to early 3rd centuries A.D.). The coin is a van't Haaff 19.1, but has an anchor to the LEFT, unlike the coins recorded by van't Haaff, which either have the anchor to the RIGHT or no anchor at all:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-149738

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« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2018, 08:13:47 am »

Seriously well done, Steve.  Amazing how many variants of known types have been emerging in the past couple of years.  If van't Haaff had these available prior to its 2007 publication, his book might have been quite a bit thicker!  Congrats on an important addition to your outstanding collection.
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« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2018, 01:43:44 pm »

Thank you Robert. The unknowns makes this series so much fun. Stkp
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« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2018, 08:16:45 am »

I recently added two drachms issued under Prince B (3rd century A.D.) to my gallery. The first is a van’t Haaff 20.1.1-1A (reverse with Athena standing right) and the second is van’t Haaff 20.1.1-1B (reverse with Athena standing facing forward, head to left):

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-150283
and
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-150282

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« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2018, 09:30:10 am »

Both are a nice addition ... Thumbs Up

Joe
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« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2018, 11:22:16 am »

Thanks, Joe
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« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2018, 06:07:39 pm »

Ah, Prince B, he of the mushroom cloud upper hair tuft.  Good pick-up's, Steve...well done.  One of the less common Elymais Arsacid Dynasty kings.  His coins seem to appear less often (in sales/auctions) than many of the other later kings.
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« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2018, 08:41:01 pm »

Thanks, Bob. The Athena facibg forward with head to the left is the less common of the two. Stkp
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« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2018, 08:58:25 am »

I just added three Elymain drachms to my gallery:

Uncertain Early Arsacid Kings (late 1st century B.C. to early 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 10.4.2-3. The coin APPEARS to be a reverse of a "highly degenerated style" but not quite "dashes of irregular style" (in which case it would be a van't Haaff 10.4.2-4A):
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-151260

Kamnaskires-Orodes (early-mid 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 12.3.1-2B1:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-151261

Phraates (early-mid 2nd century A.D.), van't Haaff 14.1.1-1C var. This coin is particularly interesting because the two pellets-in-crescent are very large and the tiara is borderless. As such, it appears to be an unrecorded variety:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-151262

Any thoughts/comments would be welcomed.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Stkp
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« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2018, 10:20:47 am »

Nice new group, Steve.  Congrats.
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« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2018, 10:53:18 am »

Thanks, Bob
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« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2018, 12:23:25 pm »

I agree, nice group,  Thumbs Up

Joe
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