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Author Topic: Sea monster ketos in incuse square  (Read 3785 times)

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Offline The Red Dragon

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Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« on: September 19, 2017, 08:24:45 am »
Hi
I've posted these images on another forum: worldofcoins.eu
I have been unable to find any other examples of ketos in an incuse square??
So, is it a fake?  Or an unknown?

Silver
0.75g
9.6mm at widest point
Caria, Kindya possibly

Many thanks for your time and any help you can provide. ;D

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 09:17:19 am »
Hi RD,

It looks like a deer's head and neck to me. :)

Meepzorp

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 09:18:36 am »
That's not a ketos  ;D
Your coin is similar to this one
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3325993

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 09:23:20 am »
This one is even closer
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1543328
Can't really say anything about authenticity though...

Offline The Red Dragon

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 09:48:56 am »
Splendid!  Many thanks for that  ;D
The other one I have looks more like a goat than this one ::)

Offline The Red Dragon

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 09:57:56 am »
Here is another which is Ketos, I think  ;)

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 10:09:35 am »

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 10:11:45 am »
And since you seem to be a fan of them, here's one I have on a messana coin  ;D

Offline The Red Dragon

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 10:31:27 am »
Very nice  ;D  +++

Offline Jochen

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 11:16:37 am »
Hallo!

I think the pic on the last coin shows rather a hippocamp.

I have added 2 pics of the Ketos:

(1) Ancient Corinthian vase with Perseus, Andromeda and head of Ketos
      (by BishkekRocks, Altes Museum, Berlin, CC BY-SA 3.0)

(2) Coin from Koropissos/Cilicia (from my collection), depicting Perseus wih harpa and head of Medusa,
      Andromeda and head of Ketos, SNG Levante Supp. 57 (this coin)

The similarity between Ketos from the coin and Ketos from the vase is stunning.

Best regards

Offline The Red Dragon

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 11:38:21 am »
They look like boars to me!  :-\
But they are very nice  8)

Offline The Red Dragon

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 12:46:48 pm »
Incidentally Ketos is read left to right.
Andromeda & Perseus are read right to left.
Why is that?

Offline Jochen

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 01:03:11 pm »
At that early time the direction of writing was not yet defined. There is no special sense behind it.

Jochen

Offline The Red Dragon

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 01:16:12 pm »
Perhaps because Ketos is facing right and the other two are facing left?

Offline Jochen

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 01:27:56 pm »
May be. A nice idea.

Jochen

Offline marcos x

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 03:51:01 pm »
also you can see pegasus wing curl on the obverse
M.X.
when I die make sure to put two coins on my eyes for the boatman......make sure they are not fouree's

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2017, 05:17:27 am »
I think the pic on the last coin [Messana] shows rather a hippocamp.

Hi folks,

I agree! :)

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 05:18:53 am »
And since you seem to be a fan of them, here's one I have on a messana coin

Hi papa,

That's a beautiful Messana coin! :)

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2017, 05:22:54 am »
Hi folks,

I have a coin depicting Asklepios riding on a winged Ketos (scroll down, last coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/rp_thrace_pautl_pt02.htm

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2017, 05:24:16 am »
Quote from: The Red Dragon on September 19, 2017, 09:57:56 am
Here is another [Caria, Kindya] which is Ketos, I think  ;)

Hi RD,

Is that Ketos, or is it a griffin?

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2017, 05:31:22 am »
Hi folks,

I have a coin that looks similar to RD's second coin in this thread [Caria, Kindya].

Here is my example (first coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/g_ionia_pt02.htm

My coin is definitely a griffin. RD's coin can go either way. The acsearch example looks more like Ketos (I think), but RD's example isn't so clear.

Meepzorp

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 06:28:54 am »
Quote from: Meepzorp on September 20, 2017, 05:17:27 am
I think the pic on the last coin [Messana] shows rather a hippocamp.

Hi folks,

I agree! :)

Meepzorp

Well it seems that ketos is used by cataloguers (and possibly by the ancient greeks) as a synonym to sea monster. Ketos in the bible or in modern greek would rather point to a moby dick. The one on messana is not a typical hippocamp as it has several fins on the back resembling to a dragon and has no wings either. The hippocamps on the coins of tarentum and byblos have wings and no multiple fins. The kete on the tets of syracuse (and the kindya coins) are clearly serpent or dragon like...

Offline Jochen

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2017, 08:01:47 am »
Dear meepzorp!

I have a similar coin from Pautalia with Asklepios riding on a winged snake, but struck under Caracalla. I have noted:

Ulpia Pautalia was a famous and well-frequented spa. The main sanctuary of Asklepios was situated at the bottom of the Hissarlik hill at the south side of the city,  not far from hot wells.

The depiction on the rev. is unique in numismatics. Certainly there are no connections to the widely spread Thracian snake cults. Most likely there is a relation to the "false prophet (Lukian)" Alexander of Abonuteichos, and the snake is an incarnation of the snake god Glykon. Possibly a votive picture with this depiction could have been found in the Asklepeion in Pautalia (Ruzicka, The Coins of Pautalia)


paparoupa naturally is right with his suggestion that Ketos was used too for sea monsters at all.

Best regards

Offline The Red Dragon

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2017, 12:42:20 pm »
Went to look at some goats today. 8) We need help keeping the nettles and brambles at bay. ::)
With regard my first picture of the coin: the ears, neck and snout are all wrong.
And as for hippocamps, I collect Celtic coins.  Where's the funny bit on the end of the tail?
Many thanks for all your input +++

Offline esnible

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Re: Sea monster ketos in incuse square
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2017, 04:51:28 pm »
Here is a smalll (2.29g) ketos coin I purchased from Brian Kritt who was the first to identify Kindya as the likely mint of the issue.

The style of the ketos' neck is very unusual.  It looks more like a backbone than a lizard's frill.  I believe that this depicting was likely inspired by large animal fossils.

In mythology, Perseus killed the ketos at Joppa.  Also at Joppa there was a giant skeleton.  Coincidence?  The skeleton of a sea monster was moved to Rome in 58 BC by Marcus Aemilius Scaurus.  Pliny claimed the monster’s backbone was 40 feet long and 1.5 feet thick with ribs taller than an Indian elephant.

What did Scaurus bring to Rome from Joppa?  Adrienne Mayor, in her book The First Fossil Hunters, argues Scaurus’ skeleton was the fossil of a giant elephant, the prehistoric mastodon.  Pliny doesn’t mention Andromeda or Perseus in connection with Scaurus’s monster.  It is tempting to link them.  Adrienne Mayor believes the ancient Greeks, seeing fossils, imagined petrified giants and animals.  Legends of griffins may have a similar origin.  Mayor mentions that the playwright Aeschylus, born circa 525 BC, “was fascinated by the geography and customs of strange lands.  He was the earliest writer to use the information about Scythia’s landscape and folklore … [he] describes the lonely caravan trails leading to a desolate country where nomads prospect for gold, a desert inhabited by monstrous Gorgons who magically turn living things to stone, and by fearsome griffins.  The griffins Aeschylus likens to ‘silent hounds with cruel, shap beaks.’”3  Mayer believes that Greek artistic depictions of griffins are ancient attempts to reconstruct the appearance of dinosaurs they knew from fossil skeletons.  She says “Despite the poetic license granted by tragedy and myth, Aeschylus was a careful zoologist—he takes pains to distinguish the wingless eagle-beaked griffins from actual winged eagles.”

 

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